# Feds 'black-bagging people' in Portland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638 "2020-07-18T03:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1246 "2020-09-02T18:34:17Z")
Okay, so how about this? Agitators, in addition to being charged with whatever crime they commit as part of their agitation, can also be charged with, or at least sued for, violating the constitutional rights of the peaceable assembly. So you know, if you are just out and about and you choose to break auto-zone’s window, then you get a vandalism charge, probably just a fine. If you do so during a demonstration, and that results in the disruption of a peaceful protest, then you can be charged with a more severe crime, or be served by a class action suit for millions of dollars for all the people’s rights you have violated? Not sure exactly how it should work, but there needs to be something, because right now, it is too easy to undermine a movement with such tactics. Do you think that that is a partisan proposal? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1247 "2020-09-02T18:39:48Z")
Isn’t that already on the books? [ORS 166.015](https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.015) (1) A person commits the crime of riot if while participating with five or more other persons the person engages in tumultuous and violent conduct and thereby intentionally or recklessly creates a grave risk of causing public alarm. (2) Riot is a Class C felony. [1971 c.743 §218] ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1248 "2020-09-02T18:47:26Z")
18 U.S. Code 2101 > (a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent— > 1. to incite a riot; or > 2. to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or > 3. to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or > 4. to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; > > and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph— > > Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. > > (b-f) [...] ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1249 "2020-09-02T19:03:16Z")
If the agent provocateur turns out to be a state actor (_a la_ [Mark Kennedy](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/09/undercover-office-green-activists)), ideally the peaceful protestors should be able to build a legal defense around entrapment. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1250 "2020-09-02T19:19:02Z")
You misunderstand. I don’t think the proposal is partisan, I think enforcement might be (and the public reaction to such things) Kind of like the laws on the books today, but I hear they are racist. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1251 "2020-09-02T19:25:13Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I already stated, numerous times that the punch was assault or battery. Begbert2, is just fighting his fantasy fight with no regard for the words i’ve written, as happens all to often here. The victim isn’t at fault, but **he is complicit** by the choice he made to be profane in the way he went about protesting. > > Protest civilly and likely no hurt befalls him. With regards to the words I bolded in your quote RIGHT HERE, you are blaming the victim. And NOBODY blames the victim unless they’re trying to justify the actions of the criminal. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1252 "2020-09-02T19:33:17Z")
This is a good point. As was shown, the Proud Boys were there stirring up trouble, not a word from the cops. Then once they left, the demonstration was shut down. And it makes a difference as to whether a demonstration is actually a riot, or whether the police use whatever excuse they can to declare it to be so. There will always be some judgement call in situations like that, and there will always be some who disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1253 "2020-09-02T23:34:19Z")
I have to admit, there have been times when I may have had an initial reaction somewhat like kearson1’s, where, say, someone like a “proud boy” has gotten in someone’s face with hateful words, and the person has hauled off and punched them. I might, in a first reaction, think: _good._ But, on second and subsequent thoughts, I would say it was wrong. And not just reluctantly, like, _yes, it was an act of civil disobedience and they need to take their jailtime, but good for them._ I strongly think (as opposed to an initial feeling) that violence in response to mere words is flat wrong. Should you warn your kids that doing certain things that they have every right to do could put them in danger? Sure. But you should also emphasize that it unjustly puts them in danger, and teach them to weigh the risks for themselves. People of color and other oppressed minorities would otherwise be paralyzed into complete inaction because people have ill will for them just going about their daily lives. And you should definitely not teach them that if they choose to exercise their rights and someone assaults them, they deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1254 "2020-09-03T00:09:29Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Law enforcement makes the decision (who else?), but if called upon courts get the last say. For an example of the courts calling bullshit, read _Edwards v. South Carolina_ , 372 U.S. 229 (1963). C.f. _Feiner v. New York_ , 340 U.S. 315 (1951). Law enforcement does not have the discretion to selectively enforce local statutes so as to effectively become content-based censors, _Cox v. Louisiana_ , 379 U.S. 536, 557 (1965). Oh, really? Have you ever heard, “Well, I’ll just let you off with a warning this time” ? LEOs have enormous discretion in terms of how the law is enforced because they are the ones enforcing it. They get to use their discretion rather freely, which is a big part of what is being protested here. They are playing favorites with all the people who are cheering for them and coming down hard on anyone who wants to criticize them. Do you deny the favoritism? Is it not happening? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1255 "2020-09-03T02:21:43Z")
He’s saying what the case held. And he’s not saying they don’t have discretion in enforcing the law. Read the rest of the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1256 "2020-09-03T12:04:26Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > His actions caused a reaction (see; Science) There _are_ actual scientists on this board to call bullshit on your ignorant invocation of science. This is neither how physics nor physiology works. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1257 "2020-09-03T12:39:04Z")
… nor the Straight Dope Message Boards. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1258 "2020-09-03T13:22:46Z")
Correct, he didn’t put enough weight into what the repercussion might be. The law is on his side, and he is in the right. It doesn’t lessen the pain he felt or stop the punch from being thrown (and who knows if the law will ever catch up to the perp) People are really really bad at risk assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1259 "2020-09-03T13:23:55Z")
Physics doesn’t say for every action there is an (equal but) opposite reaction? Color me mystified. It doesn’t matter much, I was just being funny with that line anyway. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1260 "2020-09-03T15:01:39Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Physics doesn’t say for every action there is an (equal but) opposite reaction? Even if that were applicable, which it isn’t: an ‘equal but opposite reaction’ would have involved words, not blows. Words are not equal to punches. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1261 "2020-09-03T15:20:23Z")
Maybe chemistry? Where an action can set off a much greater reaction in a volatile substance. For instance, had I a vial of chlorine triflouride, I would only say very nice things to it, and that from a very safe distance. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1262 "2020-09-03T15:21:24Z")
Quantum mechanics. Matter, antimatter, big boom? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1263 "2020-09-03T15:26:41Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Color me mystified. The air in the larynx exerts an equal and opposite force on the vocal folds when the vocal folds exert a force on the air. Mystery solved. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1264 "2020-09-03T15:31:58Z")
Maybe we’ll be treated with an MS Paint free body diagram explaining the mysterious fisticuffs phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638/1265 "2020-09-03T15:55:17Z")
You guys is too smart for me. Now if I could get you to comprehend the things I type. After pages of this stuff, you would think that would be an easy task. People don’t follow the scientific definition (so the reaction isn’t required to be equal), it is enough to know that there might be one to make you think about the action prior to performing it. He didn’t weigh the potential cost of his words. It got him punched. Yes, it was a criminal act. No, it hasn’t been excused. Anything else? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feds-black-bagging-people-in-portland/915638.md?page=64)