# Feel the #extortion Bernie has planned **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 28, 2016, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443 "2016-03-28T07:09:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/281 "2016-03-31T18:39:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Caucuses are un-democratic. It gives the vote only to those who can take all day off, not have to work or raise kids or … > > Note that in the popular vote, Hilary has 8,924,821 votes and Bernie only 6,397,980. with Clinton leading by +2,526,841… > > Yes, Superdelegates are also I agree, caucuses bad, voting good. In fact, it would be best to let people vote at home via the internet. Why should they have to take time off from work or home? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/282 "2016-03-31T19:07:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > As to one issue - tax payer funded public college for all? > > Germany is brought up as an example. Why use Germany when we have the example of free public college here is the US? When I was a freshman at Brooklyn College in 1974 it was [free](https://cunytime.wordpress.com/quick-facts/cuny-tuition/). Where are these incremental gains you speak of, when from my perspective we have moved backwards? “For things to remain the same, everything must change” - Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa (spoken by Tancredi in The Leopard) ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/283 "2016-03-31T19:30:13Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > She considers you similar to those black folks who just aren’t bright enough to vote for their best interests. President Bernie will wave his wand & magically convince Congress to pass all his excellent ideas! Is that what you choose to get from my saying that “people of all races vote against their self interest, for any number of reasons”. Do you really dispute that? And where are the cites for my “magical thinking”? I didn’t participate in the earlier election threads, but I read through some of them, and frankly, I found the posts where white posters explained to other white posters why black folks didn’t like Bernie Sanders kind of cringe-worthy, not to mention self-serving. But it is interesting to me what some people choose to reply to, and what they choose to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/284 "2016-03-31T19:34:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I agree, caucuses bad, voting good. In fact, it would be best to let people vote at home via the internet. Why should they have to take time off from work or home? It’s too easy to spoof votes. Personally, I consider it an event, important enough for me to take some time to go and have my (admittedly minor) voice be heard. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/285 "2016-03-31T19:40:20Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No, that is not why. > > Sanders has always caucused with, campaigned for, and raised money for Democrats. Many of the people who have endorsed Clinton had no problem accepting money from him through the years. In fact, they try to use that fundraising against him since he has come out against this focus on big dollar fundraising. Very easy to google the info, but here are two [recent](http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/bernie-sanders-pac-funded-democratic-party-establishment-2304455) [articles](http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/sanders-democratic-fundraisers/). Interesting. I knew he was basically a Dem loyalist when it came to legislating - I posted a while back that his voting record is pretty solid but I guess I had bought the Clintonista line that he wasn’t playing ball on fundraising (partly I suppose because his own schtick suggests the same). Ignorance fought. Really quite surprising that party loyalists like Slacker and DSeid would keep accusing him of being a johnny come lately parasite. How could they be ignorant of this? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/286 "2016-03-31T19:44:13Z")
I would still like to hear from Bernie supporters as to how they can justify their man using the Democratic Party infrastructure and data but without having loyalty or responsibility to the party. And I find it disturbing that so many people are defending what Sanders said by pointing to the fact that he used the word “we”, and describes his progressive movement as kind of being out of his control. Haven’t any of you studied history? This is what demagogues always say, and you should be frightened when you hear it. For that matter, you don’t need history, just current events. There’s not a lot of difference between that and when Drumpf says that “there would be riots” if he were denied the nomination. People have accused him of essentially _threatening_ riots there, but he was very quick to say in the same breath that he wouldn’t support the rioting, mind you, but his supporters are so goshdarned fired up, it would just happen. So this idea that someone, whether Trump or Sanders, is not really the leader of a movement but just kind of riding the dragon’s tail and warning everyone to get out of the way? That’s a bug, not a feature. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/287 "2016-03-31T19:48:28Z")
He clearly does have loyalty to the party. Doesn’t mean he has to be a sycophant. You’re demanding he give up all his independent fight for the little guy cred. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/288 "2016-03-31T19:55:17Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No, that is not why. > > Sanders has always caucused with, campaigned for, and raised money for Democrats. Many of the people who have endorsed Clinton had no problem accepting money from him through the years. In fact, they try to use that fundraising against him since he has come out against this focus on big dollar fundraising. Very easy to google the info, but here are two [recent](http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/bernie-sanders-pac-funded-democratic-party-establishment-2304455) [articles](http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/sanders-democratic-fundraisers/). Confusing. I think this actually raises more questions than it answers, though I definitely see that I had the wrong end of the stick. Thank you for setting me straight. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/289 "2016-03-31T20:01:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would still like to hear from Bernie supporters as to how they can justify their man using the Democratic Party infrastructure and data but without having loyalty or responsibility to the party. Easy: it hasn’t been demonstrated that he lacks said loyalty or responsibility. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > And I find it disturbing that so many people are defending what Sanders said by pointing to the fact that he used the word “we”, and describes his progressive movement as kind of being out of his control. Haven’t any of you studied history? This is what demagogues always say, and you should be frightened when you hear it. So Sanders can either be a liar and/or sellout, by claiming that he can cause all the progressives that support him to vote Clinton regardless of what Clinton’s policies are; or he’s Hitler. I wonder if he’s stopped beating his wife? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > For that matter, you don’t need history, just current events. There’s not a lot of difference between that and when Drumpf says that “there would be riots” if he were denied the nomination. People have accused him of essentially _threatening_ riots there, but he was very quick to say in the same breath that he wouldn’t support the rioting, mind you, but his supporters are so goshdarned fired up, it would just happen. > > So this idea that someone, whether Trump or Sanders, is not really the leader of a movement but just kind of riding the dragon’s tail and warning everyone to get out of the way? That’s a bug, not a feature. The Great Man theory of history is pretty far out of fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/290 "2016-03-31T20:14:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would still like to hear from Bernie supporters as to how they can justify their man using the Democratic Party infrastructure and data but without having loyalty or responsibility to the party. Turn it back around on you. Given that he’s followed all the rules and regulations for operating within the Democratic party structure, on what mystical basis would you deny him the right to use the resources the rules allocate to those who follow the rules? I justify him doing it because that’s what party rules say. Beyond that, my loyalty is to making a better world in general, not to a particular party. The Democratic party can be an avenue for progress or for reactionary conservatism. I appreciate folks like Sanders who use its structures for the former purpose. Handwaving about loyalty and responsibility are just sour grapes, in my opinion: if Sanders is following the rules, and if he’s advancing a progressive agenda that makes the world better, I could not care less about some old guard who sees the party as an old boy’s club who wants to exclude people who Don’t Belong or whatever bullshit gets thrown at him. > [@](#): > > And I find it disturbing that so many people are defending what Sanders said by pointing to the fact that he used the word “we”, and describes his progressive movement as kind of being out of his control. Haven’t any of you studied history? This is what demagogues always say, and you should be frightened when you hear it. > > For that matter, you don’t need history, just current events. There’s not a lot of difference between that and when Drumpf says that “there would be riots” if he were denied the nomination. People have accused him of essentially _threatening_ riots there, but he was very quick to say in the same breath that he wouldn’t support the rioting, mind you, but his supporters are so goshdarned fired up, it would just happen. > > So this idea that someone, whether Trump or Sanders, is not really the leader of a movement but just kind of riding the dragon’s tail and warning everyone to get out of the way? That’s a bug, not a feature. My eyes are rolling into the back of my head. If you’re determined to demonize Sanders by caricaturing everything he says and by spinning wild tales based on tiny scraps of evidence, nobody can stop you; but that doesn’t mean anybody’s going to take you seriously, either. Sanders is about as far from a demagogue as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/291 "2016-03-31T20:19:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Turn it back around on you. Given that he’s followed all the rules and regulations for operating within the Democratic party structure, on what mystical basis would you deny him the right to use the resources the rules allocate to those who follow the rules? > > I justify him doing it because that’s what party rules say. That works for me. Though I will also say that live by the rules/die by the rules is in play. If party rules allow it/them not to give him something and they choose not to because he hasn’t shown sufficient loyalty, that would also be justifiable. Stupid, in my opinion, but justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/292 "2016-03-31T20:20:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > It’s too easy to spoof votes. Not buying it. If you can bank online securely, you can damn well vote online. > [@](#): > > Personally, I consider it an event, important enough for me to take some time to go and have my (admittedly minor) voice be heard. Nice of you to have that luxury. Not everyone does. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/293 "2016-03-31T20:23:10Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Why use Germany when we have the example of free public college here is the US? > > When I was a freshman at Brooklyn College in 1974 it was [free](https://cunytime.wordpress.com/quick-facts/cuny-tuition/). > > Where are these incremental gains you speak of, when from my perspective we have moved backwards? Excellent point. We’re not building the wheel, we’re taking off the square corners that capitalism put on it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/294 "2016-03-31T20:27:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That works for me. Though I will also say that live by the rules/die by the rules is in play. If party rules allow it/them not to give him something and they choose not to because he hasn’t shown sufficient loyalty, that would also be justifiable. Stupid, in my opinion, but justifiable. Indeed. If a candidate came in to try to turn the Democratic party into the Segregationist party of Strom Thurmond, then I’d be all about their using technical tricks to rules-lawyer that candidate into irrelevancy. But that’s not Sanders. Sanders is operating entirely within the progressive tradition that has had its best representation in the US in the last 100 years in the Democratic party. To the extent that he lacks loyalty, it’s a lack of loyalty to specific party functionaries, not to the goals and ideals of the Democratic party. This is reflected in the fact that he’s receiving such a substantial chunk of the votes of Democratic voters, and that a significant amount of his opposition is motivated by a very reasonable concern about his electability and ability to pass legislation. He’s not someone who’s trying to subvert the Democratic party. He’s someone who’s trying to give voice to a lot of Democrats who think the current functionaries in the party don’t give us voice. I don’t give a crap about loyalty to those people. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/295 "2016-03-31T20:29:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would still like to hear from Bernie supporters as to how they can justify their man using the Democratic Party infrastructure and data but without having loyalty or responsibility to the party. > > And I find it disturbing that so many people are defending what Sanders said by pointing to the fact that he used the word “we”, and describes his progressive movement as kind of being out of his control. Haven’t any of you studied history? This is what demagogues always say, and you should be frightened when you hear it. > > For that matter, you don’t need history, just current events. There’s not a lot of difference between that and when Drumpf says that “there would be riots” if he were denied the nomination. People have accused him of essentially _threatening_ riots there, but he was very quick to say in the same breath that he wouldn’t support the rioting, mind you, but his supporters are so goshdarned fired up, it would just happen. > > So this idea that someone, whether Trump or Sanders, is not really the leader of a movement but just kind of riding the dragon’s tail and warning everyone to get out of the way? That’s a bug, not a feature. Is the Democratic Party exactly and congruently the same as the Democratic Leadership Committee and their fellows? Or is it a group that coalesces around certain principles? Hillary Clinton and her buddies are NOT the Democratic Party, in fact, you can reasonably call them parasites on the Democratic Party because they support values and programs and priorities that are very much out of step with the bulk of Democratic voters. They use the machine to generate wealth from Wall Street and ignore the wishes of the people. Opening the Democratic Party’s files to someone like Sanders, who more accurately reflects the will of the Democratic electorate, is the right and proper thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/296 "2016-03-31T20:32:51Z")
Sure, he votes pretty solid party line. Sure, he fundraises for the party. But if he were really loyal he’d give us a preview of his concession speech during a Young Turks interview. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/297 "2016-03-31T20:34:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He’s not someone who’s trying to subvert the Democratic party. What I find baffling is both some Sanders supporters and some Hillary supporters think he is doing just that (though one side supports it and the other decries it). It would make sense if one side saw it and the other didn’t, but for the extremes of both sides to see it makes me feel more justified in thinking they are more alike than not. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/298 "2016-03-31T20:37:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Not buying it. If you can bank online securely, you can damn well vote online. Yeah…the military can’t even safeguard its own systems. More than just possible internal fraud, would you really want to take the risk that some outside party (say, for example, the Chinese government employing hackers) could influence elections? > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Nice of you to have that luxury. Not everyone does. Hence absentee ballots. I was stating my belief, not claiming that everyone else should have it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/299 "2016-03-31T20:51:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > IAnd I find it disturbing that so many people are defending what Sanders said by pointing to the fact that he used the word “we”, and describes his progressive movement as kind of being out of his control. Haven’t any of you studied history? This is what demagogues always say, and you should be frightened when you hear it. But sometimes it is true, and it is entirely true in this case. Sanders is too old to position himself as the American Lenin-Stalin. He, himself, will never run for president again after this, and might not even be in the Senate for many more terms. But the progressive movement exists – Sanders did not create it, he merely gave it a visible leader and rallying-point of the moment – and **of course** it is not under his control. It is not under anyone’s, there is no Progressive Central Committee or Politburo. There is absolutely nothing frightening in those words unless you are frightened of the movement itself, not of Sanders. And . . . you’re not, are you? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443/300 "2016-03-31T21:07:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What I find baffling is both some Sanders supporters and some Hillary supporters think he is doing just that (though one side supports it and the other decries it). It would make sense if one side saw it and the other didn’t, but for the extremes of both sides to see it makes me feel more justified in thinking they are more alike than not. Sanders is trying to help the progressive wing **take over** the Democratic Party, as it should. Whether that is a form of “subversion” is a debatable semantic question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feel-the-extortion-bernie-has-planned/750443.md?page=16)