# Feeling blue about the supposed separation of Church and State **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 15, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044 "2017-06-15T17:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/1 "2017-06-15T17:42:12Z")
North Dakota is one of the few states that still has “Blue Laws”(laws that restrict certain business on Sundays for religious reasons. The House put up [HB 1163](http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/65-2017/bill-actions/ba1163.html) in an attempt to bring North Dakota into the 21 Century…and this blue law repeal attempt [got voted down yesterday, 25-22.](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/03/15/n-dakota-senate-rejects-blue-law-repeal-because-citizens-should-use-that-time-to-go-to-worship/) The reasons given? > [@Senator Eberle](#): > > “Man was not made for the Sabbath, rather the Sabbath was made for man,” > [@Senator Clemens](#): > > North Dakotans should “use that time to go to worship” or be with their families And if religionism isn’t enough to sway you, the overt sexism should: > [@](#): > > “Spending time with your wife, your husband — making him breakfast, bringing it to him in bed and then after that go take your kids for a walk,” state Rep. Bernie Santrom said when he denounced a bill that would end the state’s half-day ban on Sunday alcohol sales. His Republican colleague agreed, arguing that he cannot afford his wife having another full day of spending. > > ``` > “I don’t know about you but my wife has no problem spending everything I earn in six and a half days. And I don’t think it hurts at all to have a half day off,” state Rep. Vernon Laning said. > > ``` There is a lot more on the debate video included in my second link, and it’s even more ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/2 "2017-06-15T18:04:01Z")
This country was not founded by religious fanatics but just by fanatics that many also just happen to be religious and use it as a excuse. The legacy of fanaticism continues, the blaming of religion also continues. Nothing new under the sun. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/3 "2017-06-15T19:12:39Z")
_Turned the radio on, Heard about this new law. Up North Dakota way. Says no beer on a Sunday, No whiskey no gin. I’m so dang blue, Don’t know where to begin!_ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/4 "2017-06-15T19:14:13Z")
Nobody has ever sued to overturn these laws? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/5 "2017-06-15T19:19:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Nobody has ever sued to overturn these laws? [They have](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law#Court_cases), and they have repeatedly, throughout multiple levels of the judiciary system, including the Supreme Court, been found to violate neither the Free Exercise Clause nor the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, in almost all cases using the reasoning in the OP’s third quote to justify the first two quotes (not the “spending money” thing but the “day off” thing). . ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/6 "2017-06-15T19:41:02Z")
I live in a small town, and up until just a few years ago, some stores would be closed on Sundays, citing Blue Laws. It was never to my knowledge, a law on the books because lots of places were open. Now, everything is open, I think it may have to do with the loss of profits. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/7 "2017-06-15T19:52:51Z")
Everything has to do with the loss of profits. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/8 "2017-06-15T20:32:33Z")
We had [an interesting kerfuffle back at the turn of the century about auto dealers and blue laws. > [@](#): > > Clark County Commissioner Erin Kenny has directed the district attorney’s office to draft an ordinance to prohibit new and used car dealerships from being open on Sundays. The new measure will be introduced during Wednesday’s board meeting, and a public hearing is scheduled for Aug. 1. > > Car dealerships for years have had an informal agreement to close on Sunday, partly out of respect to nearby neighborhoods and partly to allow their employees to spend a day with their families. > > But used-car businesses that have converged on the county during the last few years are not so willing to go along with the deal. > > “There is a gentlemen’s agreement that says we’re not open on Sundays, and what this does is put it in writing,” county spokesman Doug Bradford said. Kenny was unavailable for comment. > > The question is whether it’s the government’s job to seal that agreement. ]([Ordinance would close car dealers on Sundays - Las Vegas Sun News](https://lasvegassun.com/news/2000/jul/03/ordinance-would-close-car-dealers-on-sundays/))The law ended up passing, but only applies to new car dealers. It’s bullshit. If you don’t want to be open Sunday, don’t be open. Somehow the law is still on the books, tho, and [vigorously defended by many new car dealers](https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/repeal-law-that-bans-sunday-new-car-sales-no-thanks-car-dealers-say/). I was astounded that it passed in the first place, given our reputation (and marketing) as a “24-hour town” and I continue to be amazed that it has not been either successfully challenged in court or simply repealed. [hijack] I think it’s worth noting that the sponsor, [Erin Kenny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Kenny), later spent a couple of years known as Inmate #36965-048 in federal prison for conspiracy, taking bribes, and committing wire fraud “for the purpose of depriving the citizens of Nevada of her honest services as a Clark County Commissioner.” [The details of the case were quite salacious](http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/contentlist/ci_3769098). “What does that have to do with blue laws, Bo?” you might ask. Well, nothing really ( that’s why I put the hijack label up there) but Erin Kenny, like a lot of our local politicians for the past 20 years, was a loathsomely ambitious person and I don’t mind if that stays out in the public sphere. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/9 "2017-06-15T20:45:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Everything has to do with the loss of profits. 😉 If we’d lost a few more prophets over the years we’d be a lot better off today. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/10 "2017-06-15T20:55:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Senator Eberle > “Man was not made for the Sabbath, rather the Sabbath was made for man,” The really fascinating thing about this is that the obscure historical figure who first uttered that quote was actually arguing _against_ a blue law, not for one. But Senator Eberle probably doesn’t have much time for that crazy hippie’s views, and I’m sure he was unaware of the historical context. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/11 "2017-06-15T21:50:31Z")
Also Sunday isn’t the Sabbath. The Sabbath runs from Friday sunset to Saturday Sunset. For a very long time the RC church really went after Sabbath Keepers. If you objected to Sunday services in order to observe Jesus’s Sabbath, you might end up dead. The Pope&Co were _very_ clear about the difference. So quoting something about the Sabbath in order to enforce Sunday blue laws is pure stupidity. IIRC, SCotUS not too many years ago upheld Sunday blue laws based Sunday being a generic day of rest and not a religiously denoted day. Right. So the OP quotes might result in a challenge and review. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/12 "2017-06-15T22:15:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > We had [an interesting kerfuffle back at the turn of the century about auto dealers and blue laws.](https://lasvegassun.com/news/2000/jul/03/ordinance-would-close-car-dealers-on-sundays/)The law ended up passing, but only applies to new car dealers. It’s bullshit. If you don’t want to be open Sunday, don’t be open. I think this finally ended here in RI just a few years ago. New car dealers could not be open on Sunday. No mention of the Sabbath. It was supported by a lot of the dealers who said they wanted a day off. But I believe it’s because they knew they’d have the extra cost of being open another day each week without any significant increase in sales and afraid any dealership that does open will get all the business. In fact it was happening anyway. Opposing them were other dealers facing the reality that dealerships is CT and MA will be open on Sunday, and they aren’t going to be very far away, they thought they were seeing a significant decrease in sales as a result. In Mass the dealerships will get your Rhode Island inspection and plates for you so there’s no downside to crossing state lines. Everyone else in the state also thought the law was stupid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/13 "2017-06-16T01:31:09Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If we’d lost a few more prophets over the years we’d be a lot better off today. Preach it! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/14 "2017-06-16T08:41:37Z")
Twenty some years ago, I was on a Legislative Commission to review ‘obsolete’ laws in Minnesota. One of the ones suggested was the law prohibiting auto sales on Sunday. We ended up not touching that one – we clearly saw it would cause great opposition to our whole package of suggested changes. The main objection was from the Association of Automobile Salespeople. For the same reason, they claimed that was the only day they got off work. And since they worked on commission, they would be working 7-days a week for no additional income. So they were solidly against it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/15 "2017-06-16T08:45:43Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The main objection was from the Association of Automobile Salespeople. For the same reason, they claimed that was the only day they got off work. And since they worked on commission, they would be working 7-days a week for no additional income. So they were solidly against it. Were they going to be forced to be open on Sunday? I think not. It’s an anti-competitive measure. I understand why you wouldn’t touch something like that though. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/16 "2017-06-16T08:57:35Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Were they going to be forced to be open on Sunday? I think not. It’s an anti-competitive measure. I understand why you wouldn’t touch something like that though. Yes, they would have been, by competitive pressure. Any auto dealeer that was open on Sunday might get some sales, so all the others would open up too – especially as it doesn’t cost the dealer any more in employee salaries. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/17 "2017-06-16T10:26:38Z")
In Spain, different types of stores have different “closing days” (which ones may also vary by area): for example, restaurants in industrial areas will close on the weekend, but those downtown are likely to be open on the weekend and close mid-week. Many locations have local laws against stores opening on Sunday: attempts to repeal them are opposed by small-store owners who fear the competition of supermarkets and big stores. But those same small-store owners have no problem with the halal butcher opening on Sunday and being closed on Friday, or with that Chinese-owned bazaar that opens Sunday morning and is closed on Wednesday afternoon (kids don’t have school on Wednesday afternoon). Many locations don’t enforce the laws de oficio (someone who isn’t a cop needs to file a complaint) or have modified them so that it’s ok to open on Sunday if your establishment is below a certain size; therefore, the halal butcher and the Chinese storeowner open when they want to be open and close when they want to, and that’s it, since none of their neighbors file any complaints. Wonder how that halal butcher would go down in North Dakota… ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/18 "2017-06-16T19:22:04Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Wonder how that halal butcher would go down in North Dakota… Hornbacher’s, a SuperValu affiliate, operates 8 grocery stores in the Fargo & Grand Forks, North Dakota area. Halal meat is available from their in-store butchers in the meat department. One of their competitors is Halal Meats, an immigrant-owned small butcher shop in the Grand Forks area. In fact, halal meat is available at nearly any SuperValu-supplied grocery store. Some, like the CUB store I go to, has it available all the time, and runs sales on it at Muslim holidays. Other SuperValu stores don’t stock it regularly, but can get it with a few days notice. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/19 "2017-06-16T19:31:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Wonder how that halal butcher would go down in North Dakota… His store, he can be open or not whenever he wants. The key is consistency, if you are closing your store at odd hours or not open during the posted hours or only part of the posted hours it tends to drive people away. Then the store owners tend to blame the customers when the business fails. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044/20 "2017-06-17T17:17:25Z")
I thought this story and the quotes sounded familiar, so I had a look at the OP’s link. This vote did not happen “yesterday” (i.e. in mid-June); it happened three months ago, in March. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-blue-about-the-supposed-separation-of-church-and-state/789044.md?page=2)