# Feeling guilty....please help me not feel so bad. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 1, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399 "2003-05-01T15:50:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/221 "2003-05-05T19:19:36Z")
**jarbaby** , of course cats and toddlers are different. Cats are cuter. šŸ˜ƒ I donā€™t really like declawing, as I said before, but I certainly donā€™t find it inhumane. Yeah, it sounds really brutal, but a lot of medical procedures do if you describe them in graphic detail. You donā€™t want to know what we do in a canine total hip replacement. There are cases where I wholeheartedly support declawing. Destructive or aggressive animals, where the owner could live with the consequences but will come to resent the cat, often wind up at the shelter, out on the street, or simply neglected and treated as something to be endured until the animal dies. None of those are good options. Cats returned to the shelter for behavior problems are usually considered unadoptable and get put down right off. Out on the street the cat runs the risk of getting hit by a car, starving to death, being attacked and killed by other animals, you name it. Being neglected and treated as a burden is no way for a cat to live either. So that leaves declawing. The cat has a little discomfort, the owner has a vet bill and some guilt, and they live happily together for years to come. Hell, we had one patient who was so damn hard for the owner to handle that we finally declawed him in the rear, too. The lady put up with years of him clawing the shit out of her and trying behavior modification before she reached that point. What else could she have done? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/222 "2003-05-05T20:28:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*TVAA, if a cat is sick beyond repair do you think itā€™s humane or inhumane to put it to sleep? \*\* Humane. > [@](#): > > \*\*If a cat is a stray and waiting to be adopted, should it be spayed or neutered? \*\* I would actually oppose this. Iā€™d support the reduction of the dog and cat populations through predation instead. > [@](#): > > \*\*What about rabies vaccinations? Or distemper or kennel cough? Should we not give those to cats because in real nature they wouldnā€™t receive them? \*\* I have no real objection to these. > [@](#): > > \*\*Would you spay or neuter or euthanize a child? \*\* No. No. Yes. > [@](#): > > \*\*NOā€¦ **because cats and people are different**. \*\* And in some way theyā€™re the same. And _please_ donā€™t make assumptions about what I would or would not do. I realize it was only for the purposes of debate, but itā€™s annoying anyway. > [@](#): > > \*\*We make decisions for cats because they cannot be or ā€˜refuse to beā€™ trained and they are domesticated animals in our charge. Lady Venoma is not having her cat declawed out of vanity or because she feels claws are a deformity, but rather because a cat, which she loves, does not understand that destroying thousands of dollars worth of furniture is inappropriate. THIS CANNOT BE EXPLAINED TO A CAT. \*\* Cats need to scratch. Dogs need to bark. Removing their claws to prevent them from doing this, or removing their voiceboxes to silence them, is a denial of their needs. In a very real sense, it treats them not as creatures but as objects. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/223 "2003-05-05T20:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## If a cat is a stray and waiting to be adopted, should it be spayed or neutered? > > I would actually oppose this. Iā€™d support the reduction of the dog and cat populations through predation instead. Please tell me you donā€™t understand the term ā€œpredation,ā€ or that Iā€™m being wooshed. Otherwise, Iā€™m forced to conclude you would want to legitimize the hunting of dogs and cats in lieu of spaying or neutering. In other words, you would rather subject the dog and cat populations to the fear and abuse of hunting instead of a simple, relatively painless operation. If thatā€™s the case, you are one sick puppy. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/224 "2003-05-05T20:53:15Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Would you spay or neuter or euthanize a child? > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > No. No. Yes. what? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/225 "2003-05-05T21:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\*Please tell me you donā€™t understand the term ā€œpredation,ā€ or that Iā€™m being wooshed. Otherwise, Iā€™m forced to conclude you would want to legitimize the hunting of dogs and cats in lieu of spaying or neutering. In other words, you would rather subject the dog and cat populations to the fear and abuse of hunting instead of a simple, relatively painless operation. > \*\* Who said anything about hunting? I said Iā€™d support predation. Massive woosh there (presuming I understand ā€˜wooshā€™). **Ethilrist** : No. No. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/226 "2003-05-05T21:03:47Z")
I apologize TVAA. I was under the impression you were a rational human being. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/227 "2003-05-05T21:09:04Z")
Well, either youā€™re advocating the hunting of dogs and cats by people, or youā€™re suggesting they be turned loose to be hunted by wild animals. Predation: 1) the act of plundering or preying; 2) the method of existence of predatory animals. _Source: Websterā€™s New World College Dictionary_ I suppose you could also be advocating their release into the wild to fend for themselves, but that is crueler than anything else suggested, in my opinion, so I didnā€™t consider it. However, now that I see you would support the euthanization of children, Iā€™m not sure weā€™re working from the same set of values. Iā€™m from Earth, you see. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/228 "2003-05-05T21:15:36Z")
So if a child were suffering terribly from an incurable disease, you wouldnā€™t support hastening its death? Why is it ethical to stop the suffering of a cat or dog but not a human being? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/229 "2003-05-05T21:26:55Z")
I think you need to define your terms a little better. In the first place, ā€œeuthanasiaā€ typically refers to a quick and painless death. Although itā€™s usually understood that such a death is an effort to relieve needless suffering, thatā€™s not necessarily the case. In the second place, many children have suffered from ā€œincurableā€ diseases that were later cured or at least became treatable. Polio, for example. Youā€™d advocate killing all the children who contracted polio, rather than work toward a cure? In the third place, the average thinking human places a little more importance on the welfare of a child versus the welfare of a dog or cat. In the fourth place, I wish you would definitively answer what you meant by ā€œpredation.ā€ Frankly, none of the scenarios I can think of for that term are remotely humane, but maybe youā€™re thinking of something else. Or youā€™re an idiot. It was a tossup for a while, but frankly the smart money is starting to bet on the latter option. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/230 "2003-05-05T21:35:13Z")
The question regarded whether I would ever euthanize a child. The answer is ā€˜yesā€™: there are some circumstances where I would. If this word were (AFAIK, incorrectly) interpreted to refer to killing unwanted children, the answer would be ā€˜noā€™. (Or at least the state of the world would have to become much, much worse.) Are they suffering needlessly? Do they _want_ to live? Will their disease inevitably kill them while at the same time preventing them from doing things they find worthwhile? The answers to these questions would determine my response. In principle, I see no _a priori_ reason to deny children the right to choose death any more than anyone else (and I am quite firmly in favor of the right-to-die movementā€¦ just not the inevitable nutcases it attracts). Thirdly: so? A majority of humanity can be mistaken; does it matter if more people value one thing than another? Fourthly: Predation. You know, death by predators. Bobcats, wolves, etc. Take away the predation and you can severely damage a species. Havenā€™t you ever heard of ā€œwolves and caribouā€? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/231 "2003-05-05T21:50:13Z")
So rather than a fairly painless procedure like spaying or neutering, you would have litters of kittens or puppies thrown in the wild to be killed by predators or hit by cars whatever befalls them? Bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/232 "2003-05-05T21:57:01Z")
No no no. Iā€™d prefer for natural population control to be instituted. Dumping loads of baby animals in some kind of weird animal-preserve-o-death is NOT what Iā€™m going for. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/233 "2003-05-05T21:57:48Z")
**TVAA** : Are you seriously suggesting that dogs and cats should be viewed as equal in worth to a child? Between this and your ā€œpredationā€ comment, Iā€™m seriously stunned that you post on a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/234 "2003-05-05T21:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Bizarre. \*\* You want bizarre? I just realized how easily you can rewrite the lyrics to No Doubtā€™s Hey Baby to be all about you-EG change ā€œHey Baby, hey baby, heyā€ to ``` "Jarbaby, Jarbabyj" ``` I expect for the next week or so, Iā€™ll be suddenly woken up by more lyrics as they occur to me. Eventually, Iā€™ll sit up at 3 am and start singing the whole song. Somehow, this is your fault. Iā€™m not sure just how exactly. But, Iā€™ll figure that out too. Blast you Jarbaby! ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/235 "2003-05-05T22:00:10Z")
In some ways, yes. Much more so than, say, a bacterium. And why is it that you associate a position you (obviously!) donā€™t understand with ignorance? Please, enlighten me: what objective knowledge indicates that human children are inherently more important than other beings? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/236 "2003-05-05T22:01:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*No no no. Iā€™d prefer for natural population control to be instituted. Dumping loads of baby animals in some kind of weird animal-preserve-o-death is NOT what Iā€™m going for. \*\* Ok, so if I have a boy cat and a girl cat at my home, which should I do: a) sit down and talk to them frankly about urges and my desire for them not to have children. b) spay or neuter them c) allow them to mate unreservedly and then release the kittens into the wild ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/237 "2003-05-05T22:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carrot \* > \*\*I mean, of course, _Wilhelm Shakespear_, the very famous German author. > > No? Well, what about Farles Pikkens, then? \*\* Ah! But what most people donā€™t know about Wilhelm Shakespear is that his works were really written by Kristophe Mkharlo. Honestly! It is the best kept secret in almost all of German literature! Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![DeskMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DeskMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeskMonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/238 "2003-05-05T22:18:55Z")
Perhaps we should take a non-coercive approach to the rearing of domestic pets. Let them decide if they want to be neutered, spayed, declawed, or made into bonsai art. I think if you explain it properly, pets will decide to forgo carnal pleasures and spend their time mending all of the furniture you coerced them into shredding. **TVAA** , are you starting up the ā€œTPSā€ (Taking Pets Seriously) branch for the TCS people? Besides, wolves and caribou need to eat too! ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/239 "2003-05-05T22:25:05Z")
At the very least, spaying and neutering your pets prevents you from breeding ones that are sufficiently intelligent (and concerned about your preferences) to be properly trained. [shakes head] ---
**Author:** ![Venoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@Venoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Venoma)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399/240 "2003-05-05T22:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Please, enlighten me: what objective knowledge indicates that human children are inherently more important than other beings? \*\* They grow up to become Shakespears, and Nobels, and Einsteins, and Hawkings. They unfortunately also grow up to become maniacal dictators and angels of ā€˜mercyā€™ sometimes. How many animals improve the quality of life of their own species, other than human beings? Donā€™t get me wrong, I donā€™t think weā€™re more ā€˜importantā€™ per se than any other organism here on the face of the earth. All are needed for a balanced ecosystem. But a human child has a much greater potential than a kitten does. And I so love kittens. **jarb** , it is amusing me greatly that you keep typoing my name into **Lady Venom** ā€™s šŸ˜‰ but not in a bad way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feeling-guilty-please-help-me-not-feel-so-bad/172399.md?page=13)