# Felicity Huffman, Lori Loughlin indicted in Ivy League bribery scheme **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 12, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001 "2019-03-12T15:06:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/381 "2019-04-25T21:03:35Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > The latest gossip supposedly from people supposedly close to Loughlin is that they knew that they were breaking rules but not that they were breaking laws. They were misled by their advisers. > > How is that relevant? Ignorance of the law is no excuse, right? Yeah but, combine that with a very strong mea culpa and now knowing the law, promise to never break it again, goes a long way towards a softer sentence, especially for this crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/382 "2019-04-25T21:36:24Z")
Except I have not heard a mea culpa from Lori Loughlin and her husband. Felicity Huffman did offer a very contrite public apology and I’ve heard that she might see some jail time. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/383 "2019-04-25T22:07:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Except I have not heard a mea culpa from Lori Loughlin and her husband. Felicity Huffman did offer a very contrite public apology and I’ve heard that she might see some jail time. Loughlin and her husband can change their plea at anytime. They probably haven’t even seen all of the evidence that the prosecution has against them. They are following the advice of their legal counsel right now. These are not binary decisions that they are making. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/384 "2019-04-25T22:10:24Z")
Isn’t the prosecution supposed to supply all of its evidence to defense counsel? Edited to add, that’s what I learned from My Cousin Vinny. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/385 "2019-04-25T22:17:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Isn’t the prosecution supposed to supply all of its evidence to defense counsel? > > Edited to add, that’s what I learned from My Cousin Vinny. Eventually. There hasn’t even been a trial date set. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/386 "2019-04-25T23:04:11Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Loughlin and her husband can change their plea at anytime. They probably haven’t even seen all of the evidence that the prosecution has against them. They are following the advice of their legal counsel right now. These are not binary decisions that they are making. Yes, but we don’t know how their discussions are going. The lawyers could have recommended taking the first deal and Loughlin could have said no way. The lawyers could have laid out a number of options with the upsides and downsides of each and Loughlin has chosen a path that is more jail time if it goes bad with the possibility of getting off. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/387 "2019-04-26T00:46:41Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > They are following the advice of their legal counsel right now. These are not binary decisions that they are making. Are they? Do we know that? Their attorneys should be telling them the options and giving an assessment of the risks but letting them decide. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/388 "2019-04-26T01:42:53Z")
Occam’s razor would say that the most likely assumption is that them, not being attorneys, would in all likelihood be taking their attorney’s advice. But sure, they could have done a thousand different things. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/389 "2019-04-26T18:55:01Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > The latest gossip supposedly from people supposedly close to Loughlin is that they knew that they were breaking rules but not that they were breaking laws. They were misled by their advisers. > > How is that relevant? Ignorance of the law is no excuse, right? Depends on the law. Some laws require that you actually know you’re breaking them. I don’t think fraud generally does, though. You just have to know you’re representing something that’s false. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/390 "2019-04-26T20:00:59Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Occam’s razor would say that the most likely assumption is that them, not being attorneys, would in all likelihood be taking their attorney’s advice. But sure, they could have done a thousand different things. :rolleyes: You would think that they would listen to their attorneys, but I can tell you from experience that many people do not. I cannot figure this out. If you think I am an idiot, then fire me and go with someone you trust. I’m not steering you wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/391 "2019-04-26T21:07:35Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Occam’s razor would say that the most likely assumption is that them, not being attorneys, would in all likelihood be taking their attorney’s advice. But sure, they could have done a thousand different things. :rolleyes: I’ve hardly ever seen as big a misunderstanding of Occam’s Razor than this. I have heard of examples of people with a lot less reason to think they know what they are doing than these two rich celebrities not follow their attorney’s advice. The possibility of their lawyer advising them not to plead guilty and the possibility of them rejecting advice to plead guildy because they don’t get they are in the wrong can be equally supported by the information. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/392 "2019-04-26T21:53:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve hardly ever seen as big a misunderstanding of Occam’s Razor than this. I have heard of examples of people with a lot less reason to think they know what they are doing than these two rich celebrities not follow their attorney’s advice. The possibility of their lawyer advising them not to plead guilty and the possibility of them rejecting advice to plead guildy because they don’t get they are in the wrong can be equally supported by the information. I agree. In addition, it’s not binary. Couldn’t the attorney have given them a list of options with the associated risks and outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/393 "2019-04-27T00:25:57Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I’d way rather see the super-rich get a choice: X years in prison or 90% of your wealth + a week in the slammer. You know, I’d be happy with 75%… as long as the government decides what is 75% and not some ‘thieves guild’ like KPMG. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/394 "2019-04-27T02:21:23Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I agree. In addition, it’s not binary. Couldn’t the attorney have given them a list of options with the associated risks and outcomes? That is exactly the attorney’s job. It’s not the attorney’s job to make the decision for them, but rather to live them a list of options, with the associated risks and outcomes and have them decide. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Occam’s razor would say that the most likely assumption is that them, not being attorneys, would in all likelihood be taking their attorney’s advice. But sure, they could have done a thousand different things. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: back at you. Are you actually familiar with Occam’s razor? Occam’s razor say no such thing. Oh, wait. Maybe you are right. My friend is dying of lung cancer but he continues to smoke. Not being a doctor, the most likely assumption here is that he would be following the professional’s advice, right? So Occam’s razor says that the the most likely assumption is that doctor is advising him to continue smoking. I stand corrected. A while back there were multiple stories such as [this one](https://people.com/crime/lori-loughlin-rejected-plea-deal-before-new-charges-source/): > [@People](#): > > But Loughlin and her husband, fashion designer J. Mossimo Giannulli, have not entered pleas — and a source close to them tells PEOPLE that they have resisted any agreements that would result in jail time. Under federal guidelines, both of them would have gotten between 18-24 months in jail under a plea agreement. > “They weren’t ready to accept that,” says the source, who is familiar with the legal discussions in the case. “They’re really not seeing how serious this is.” Let’s rewrite that to match your assumption. > [@What People would say if Occam's Razor Could be Applied Here](#): > > But Loughlin and her husband, fashion designer J. Mossimo Giannulli, **following legal advice** have not entered pleas — and a source close to them tells PEOPLE that [del]they[/del] **their attorneys** have resisted any agreements that would result in jail time. Under federal guidelines, both of them would have gotten between 18-24 months in jail under a plea agreement. > “ **Their attorneys** weren’t ready to accept that,” says the source, who is familiar with the legal discussions in the case. “ **Their attorneys are** really not seeing how serious this is.” Of course, anonymous reports are not completely trustworthy, but they do suggest that’s a very real possibility. People do really stupid things all the time and make stupid judgments even with good advice. I fail to see why that’s controversial. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/395 "2019-04-27T05:20:34Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > That is exactly the attorney’s job. It’s not the attorney’s job to make the decision for them, but rather to live them a list of options, with the associated risks and outcomes and have them decide. Exactly. If I tell a client that he will do 2 years, for example, under the plea agreement, but if he goes to trial and loses, he will do 20 years, but if he wins he does no time at all, I cannot legally or ethically make that decision for him. It’s not me that may have to do the time. It’s him. I can advise him of my analysis of the case, the strengths or weaknesses of the state’s case, and what a jury is likely to do. But at the end of the day, I don’t live his life. He has to make the choice for what is best for him and his family and how risk adverse he is. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/396 "2019-04-27T07:25:42Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It’s not me that may have to do the time. It’s him. I can advise him of my analysis of the case, the strengths or weaknesses of the state’s case, and what a jury is likely to do. But at the end of the day, I don’t live his life. He has to make the choice for what is best for him and his family and how risk adverse he is. Exactly. I’ve not had any personal experience with criminal law, but was involved in several lawsuits that were settled, as well as a divorce, and attorneys NEVER did anything but this. The attorneys told us where our case was strong, what the potential problems were and the crapshoot of an actual trial. Searching online, a recent article, > [@](#): > > Initially, Loughlin appeared to treat the federal charges as a joke but now reality has set in that the pair could potentially face jail sentences of up to 40 years. Again, this is based on anonymous reports so who know how accurate it is, but it doesn’t sound like they have been listening carefully to their attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2019, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/397 "2019-04-27T09:31:53Z")
The reporting seems a bit off. While _telling_ a client what to do unless asked (and often even then) is a big no no, givin g\* advice\* of on the best course of action is another matter. If I say to the client that _“fuck this, fight and win”,_ well thats unethical at best, professional misconduct at worst. On the other hand, saying "_the evidence is such that the probability of a acquittal at trial is high, and the sentence in case of conviction will be less"_. Thats standard work. Also, lets not look at the maximum sentence. In my jurisidtion, criminal damage has a max sentence of 14 years. Someone who has been arrested for spray painting? First offence, most likely a (small) fine. No way am I going to tell her the maximum sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/398 "2019-04-30T03:46:13Z")
[Lori Loughlin Wants to Face Trial to Save Reputation: ‘Only Chance of Avoiding Jail,’ Says Source](https://people.com/crime/lori-loughlin-wants-trial-save-reputation-avoid-jail-says-source/) > [@](#): > > “Lori feels like so much damage has been done publicly that the only way for her to counter it is to fight this case in court,” the source tells PEOPLE. “She feels like once all the evidence is presented, that people will understand how things happened.” > > … > > “She doesn’t want to spend time in jail,” the source says, “but she knows that any sort of plea or conviction at this point will include jail time. Her only chance of avoiding jail is to go to court and be found not guilty.” It’s a bold strategy Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off for her. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/399 "2019-04-30T09:00:18Z")
Sorry, Lori - even if the courts find you innocent you’ve already been tried in the court of public opinion and found guilty, or at least clueless. At present your reputation is mud and it’s most likely going to stay that way. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2019, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001/400 "2019-04-30T11:08:27Z")
I’m not so sure, those Christian Republicans seem to have a predilection for forgiveness. Y’know, when it’s another Christian Republican. I’m pretty sure she could reclaim any lost ground simply by saying she’s had a talk with God and she’s been forgiven, and reborn, faith renewed! I bet she spews a lot of bible quotes about loving one’s child, as her defense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-indicted-in-ivy-league-bribery-scheme/831001.md?page=21)