# Fellow Dopers, A Word if I May **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2007, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586 "2007-02-17T02:51:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/161 "2007-02-18T07:53:58Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I want to thank everyone for their advice and say a special thanks for those who had kind words for me. I am going to try hard to curtail my annoying tendencies and ask for your patience and forgiveness when I fail. [/QUOTE] I wondered for a bit what the purpose of this pit thread was, especially after others began attacking people for essentially answering your OP. Good for you for listening to other people’s advice constructively instead of jamming your fingers in your ears like we all do sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/162 "2007-02-18T08:41:45Z")
[QUOTE=Inner Stickler] As far as authoritarian speaking goes, them’s the breaks. If you don’t like her style and tone, put it in a pit thread and not in the topic du jour, ok? That seems so juvenile. [/quote] **IS** , that seems weird to me: That someone could read this whole thread (you did read the whole thread, right?) and still miss the fact that **Lissa** ’s “style and tone” is actually the “topic du jour” of _that very thread_, which Pit thread was opened by **Lissa** herself inviting feedback on her posting. That seems so juvenile. Or perhaps asinine would be a better adjective to employ. But them’s the breaks. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/163 "2007-02-18T15:38:12Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] Then why don’t you know that you come off like Snotly McBitchface the Queen Bee in this thread? [/QUOTE] You really are the master of the signature worthy one liners. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/164 "2007-02-18T16:23:47Z")
[QUOTE=Inner Stickler] **ETF** , that seems weird to me. It’s the people I don’t like that irritate me like that. I can forgive personal foibles in people I respect. Not so much with people I already don’t like. I’ve never felt that **Lissa** was doing anything all that egregious. And if you’re going to get all up in a lather about hubby, then I expect to see some lathering about all the cute ways posters refer to their spouses, usually involving some cutesie manipulation of their username. As far as authoritarian speaking goes, them’s the breaks. If you don’t like her style and tone, put it in a pit thread and not in the topic du jour, ok? That seems so juvenile. Have I poked the sleeping dragon? [/QUOTE] To clarify now that I’ve had some sleep: 1. In someone I like, I’d want to see an annoying habit modified so that it doesn’t throw sand (however small an amount) into the gears of our relationship. In someone I don’t like, it merely confirms my dislike. In someone I don’t give a rat’s patootie about _either way_, it affects the possibility of my looking with favor upon that individual. Clearer now? 2. I don’t give a rat’s patootie about the word “hubby” – it may bother others, but I don’t care. What I _have_ objected to is the **over** use of her husband as a secondhand authority. 3. An authoritative tone based on secondhand information, when employed in arguing against someone with firsthand experience, is not an approach likely to be persuasive. When an individual persists in such tone in the face of well-grounded rebuttals it tends to be off-putting to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/165 "2007-02-18T17:09:05Z")
I’m not sure why you call it “secondhand” information. It’s first hand information, isn’t it? If I ask Stephen Hawking what he thinks of black holes, and then I tell you what he said, haven’t I gotten the poop straight from the horse’s mouth? Second hand information would be if I read it in a book, or someone told me that Stephen said such-and-such. Isn’t that how you see it? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/166 "2007-02-18T17:12:20Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I’m not sure why you call it “secondhand” information. It’s first hand information, isn’t it? If I ask Stephen Hawking what he thinks of black holes, and then I tell you what he said, haven’t I gotten the poop straight from the horse’s mouth? Second hand information would be if I read it in a book, or someone told me that Stephen said such-and-such. Isn’t that how you see it? [/QUOTE] Except for the fact that you get horse poop from the other end, you’re spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/167 "2007-02-18T17:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=alice\_in\_wonderland] You really are the master of the signature worthy one liners. [/QUOTE] Either that or I have a bizarre, disordered obsession with some magnificent Bitch Queen archetype that projects up out of the collective unconscious directly into my reptile brain…It’d probably make more sense if you’d met my mother. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/168 "2007-02-18T17:17:41Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] **IS** , that seems weird to me: That someone could read this whole thread (you did read the whole thread, right?) and still miss the fact that **Lissa** ’s “style and tone” is actually the “topic du jour” of _that very thread_, which Pit thread was opened by **Lissa** herself inviting feedback on her posting. That seems so juvenile. Or perhaps asinine would be a better adjective to employ. But them’s the breaks. [/QUOTE] My apologies for not being clear, myself. I was up way too late as well. I felt that people were unfairly bashing her in the baby-raper thread for something she had not done in that thread. In this thread, since she asked for constructive criticism, it’s not so out of place, although I still feel any correction on her part is unwarranted. I know that someone once accused another poster of being arrogant and dismissive and was told, that’s just how said poster is. But here’s **Lissa** being treated, at least in my opinion, differently and unfairly. And I see things very differently than you on the topic of annoying habits. Maybe, I’ve just managed to fool myself into believing I don’t mind them. Because this is how I react to the annoying habits of other people: Me to person I like: Did you know you are clicking your teeth in 4/4 time? Me to person I don’t like: Stop. Clicking. Your. Teeth! _Throws something_ Their positive qualities overpower the irritants. You know what? I’m not really a debate person and I don’t usually read the threads with a lot of citing. I know **Lissa** best from her museum stories, so maybe I just haven’t had the same exposure to it as the rest of you. Anyway, I hope I’ve explained my response adequately. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/169 "2007-02-18T17:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I’m not sure why you call it “secondhand” information. It’s first hand information, isn’t it? If I ask Stephen Hawking what he thinks of black holes, and then I tell you what he said, haven’t I gotten the poop straight from the horse’s mouth? Second hand information would be if I read it in a book, or someone told me that Stephen said such-and-such. Isn’t that how you see it? [/QUOTE] I’m not **ETF** , but no. Second-hand information is something that comes through a filter, whether that filter is a person or a book or the tv. I have first-hand information if I observe something directly, second-hand information if I get it from a book or from a person. Each additional filter adds another layer of possible misunderstanding. Usually, **Lissa** is a good filter because she does caveat things fairly well and she tries to cite her points (we all have bad days sometimes). You\* are a spectacularly bad filter. You could work on that. \*I’m not that great either. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/170 "2007-02-18T17:27:07Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I’m not sure why you call it “secondhand” information. It’s first hand information, isn’t it? If I ask Stephen Hawking what he thinks of black holes, and then I tell you what he said, haven’t I gotten the poop straight from the horse’s mouth? Second hand information would be if I read it in a book, or someone told me that Stephen said such-and-such. Isn’t that how you see it? [/QUOTE] I guess it depends on how you define these things. I thought that, in this case, “first hand information” would be seeing it for yourself. So, **Lissa** ’s husband gets first hand information about prisons every day when he’s on the job. **Lissa** , on the other hand, gets information about how prisons work filtered through the perceptions and the priorities of her husband. If he tells her about an incident that occurred at work that day, all she gets is his interpretation of it. That might reasonably be called “second hand information.” He would give her a “first hand account” of the incident (that is, an account based on his first hand experience of it), but the information she receives is second hand. Does that make any sense? I’ve never really thought this closely about this particular terminology before. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/171 "2007-02-18T18:12:38Z")
Well, the others said how you’re off on the secondhand info thing, but seriously **Liberal** you simply have to stop trying to use analogies. You suck worse at them than anyone I’ve ever seen. You don’t even seem to know what they’re for. hint: they try to help explain your reasoning. First hand knowledge of black holes?? **Lissa** ’s hubby opinion on prisons is akin to the greatest living mind in physics’ opinion on black holes?? FFS. BTW, great response back there to **ETF**. You would fit right in at “the other place”. In fact, someone does a delightful rendition of you there that you might enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/172 "2007-02-18T18:45:15Z")
[QUOTE=Inner Stickler] You know what? I’m not really a debate person and I don’t usually read the threads with a lot of citing. I know **Lissa** best from her museum stories, so maybe I just haven’t had the same exposure to it as the rest of you. Anyway, I hope I’ve explained my response adequately. [/QUOTE] Yes, you have, and I see I took it a bit wrong. My apologies. Okay, take my hand, fill your lungs, and SING! “Kuymbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya…” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/173 "2007-02-18T18:49:43Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] He would give her a “first hand account” of the incident (that is, an account based on his first hand experience of it), but the information she receives is second hand. Does that make any sense? I’ve never really thought this closely about this particular terminology before. [/QUOTE] Almost there. She receives firsthand information from him, but when she tells it to anyone else, no matter how close to verbatim she tries to be, it becomes secondhand. The point about filters made by **stretch** is spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/174 "2007-02-18T19:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] I guess it depends on how you define these things. I thought that, in this case, “first hand information” would be seeing it for yourself. So, **Lissa** ’s husband gets first hand information about prisons every day when he’s on the job. [/QUOTE] That makes sense, too. But in that case, the only possible first hand information would be from biologists about evolution, NASCAR drivers about race day, George Bush about judicial appointments, and so on. It means that there’s an awful lot of second hand information floating about, and that Lissa is in no way remarkable in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/175 "2007-02-18T21:31:26Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] That makes sense, too. But in that case, the only possible first hand information would be from biologists about evolution, NASCAR drivers about race day, George Bush about judicial appointments, and so on. It means that there’s an awful lot of second hand information floating about, and that Lissa is in no way remarkable in that regard. [/QUOTE] Yep, most information that the average person has is second hand; we can’t all be specialists in everything. It’s a matter of how you present your less-than first-hand information that is important. And how much you change that information when you interpret (filter) it. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/176 "2007-02-20T20:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I have to say, **Lissa** , that I’ve never found your posts to be anything other than interesting, informed, and polite. The idea that you’re a center of any sort of controversy on these boards frankly mystifies me. Just keep on doing what you’re doing, and don’t sweat the lynch mob. [/QUOTE] I second **Miller**. Lissa, I like you. A lot. Your posts are interesting and well-written. You are pleasant and supportive of your fellow members. I always smile when I see that you’ve contributed to a thread that I’ve started because I know that your post will be a pleasure to read. There are a number of snide, unhappy people on this board. Don’t let them get you down. As **Miller** says, “Just keep on doing what you’re doing.” Don’t let the unhappy ones change you. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2007, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/177 "2007-02-20T23:51:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sonia Montdore] I second **Miller**. Lissa, I like you. A lot. Your posts are interesting and well-written. You are pleasant and supportive of your fellow members. I always smile when I see that you’ve contributed to a thread that I’ve started because I know that your post will be a pleasure to read. There are a number of snide, unhappy people on this board. Don’t let them get you down. As **Miller** says, “Just keep on doing what you’re doing.” Don’t let the unhappy ones change you. [/QUOTE] Your post, like **Miller** ’s, is a disingenuous response to this thread. You’re both acting as if the critics have come in here specifically to offer snide and unjustified slams, to do nothing but savagely rain on the parade of **Lissa** ’s sunny disposition. It’s simply not true. I’ve made clear (like quite a lot of other folks in this thread) that i have no problem with **Lissa** as a general matter of course. I’ve participated in many of the same threads as her and, like you, i find many of her contributions to this board to be interesting and entertaining. My only problem with **Lissa** —and, indeed, the only issue over which i’ve ever crossed swords with her, in my recollection—is the one specific issue that she brought up in the OP. And, as i said in an earlier post, i never would have made anything of this issue if she hadn’t started a thread specifically seeking opinions on the matter. I’m not here to make blanket condemnations of her, and neither are most other folks in this thread; i came here specifically to respond to an issue that _she raised_ when she started the thread. You are welcome to disagree with me, but you do yourself no credit attributing to me motives that i do not have, and attitudes that i do not hold. ---
**Author:** ![Sonia\_Montdore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Sonia\_Montdore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonia_Montdore)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/178 "2007-02-21T00:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] YMy only problem with **Lissa** You are welcome to disagree with me, but you do yourself no credit attributing to me motives that i do not have, and attitudes that i do not hold. [/QUOTE] _You_? My post wasn’t about you. My post was about **Lissa**. Far from attributing motives to you, I wasn’t thinking of you at all. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/179 "2007-02-21T00:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] Your post, like **Miller** ’s, is a disingenuous response to this thread. You’re both acting as if the critics have come in here specifically to offer snide and unjustified slams, to do nothing but savagely rain on the parade of **Lissa** ’s sunny disposition. It’s simply not true. [/quote] True, **Lissa** did invite the responses she’s gotten in this thread. But she opened this thread in the first place because she was getting those sorts of responses in _other_ threads. If her question is, “What am I doing wrong in all these other threads, and how should I change my posting style as a result?” I think that, “You aren’t doing anything wrong, and you shouldn’t change a thing,” is as valid a response as any other. > [@](#): > > I’ve made clear (like quite a lot of other folks in this thread) that i have no problem with **Lissa** as a general matter of course. I’ve participated in many of the same threads as her and, like you, i find many of her contributions to this board to be interesting and entertaining. > > \ > > You are welcome to disagree with me, but you do yourself no credit attributing to me motives that i do not have, and attitudes that i do not hold. There are almost 200 posts to this thread. Although I haven’t worked out the percentages myself, I’m fairly certain that your own posts make up a fairly small percentage of the content in this thread. In the spirit of offering constructive criticism to posters one otherwise admires, you might want to consider getting over yourself just a teensy bit. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586/180 "2007-02-21T00:50:50Z")
**Miller** ’s response is a justified one – he sees no problems, and recommends no change in consequence. I personally like **Lissa** a great deal, and the only issue I have, which I would ordinarily not have mentioned, is the air of authoritativeness she takes on in threads related to correctional institutions generally. I hope I explained my concern with _tone_ – not, generally, with content – well enough that she saw it as constructive criticism – and be it noted that she opened this thread _asking_ for constructive criticism, or I would never have broached it. Someone who is an unmitigated dickhead, who sincerely holds in his heart that his view is the only possible way for a sensible person to think, and who divests himself of his pearls of wisdom to inform the ignorant rest of us, deserves a comeuppance. **Lissa** is not that sort; she simply (IMO, which could be wrong) places too great a store in the universality of what she has learned from and working with her husband, in that one area of interest – and letting her know that, in a relatively polite way, and in response to her own question about whether there is an issue, seemed a valid step to me. What she does provide, on corrections as well as other matters, is fine, valuable information; it’s important that she realize in questions _related_ to imprisonment that her experience is not always valid universally, and post accordingly. For example, I’ll wager that any attorney happening on this thread can name three distinctions between the rights of convicted felons and those of persons incarcerated before conviction pending trial – a very pertinent matter in jails, and undoubtedly never an issue to her husband or herself as regards their expertise on prisons. And that’s all I tried to convey – and I hope I succeeded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-dopers-a-word-if-i-may/392586.md?page=10)