# Fellow Obama-ites: let's be nicer to tighty righties **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332 "2008-09-06T12:28:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/41 "2008-09-07T00:21:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You know, somewhere out in the intertubes right now there’s a Republican message board having the same discussion about you - how you’re obviously wrong, you don’t have a clue, you’re stupid, and there’s nothing at all of merit in your positions. > > And they’re just as wrong as you are for believing it. > > You need to step out of the echo chamber sometimes and listen to the other side with respect. Not just for ammo to refute them, but to seriously understand their point of view. > > To do that, you have to start from a position that A) they aren’t stupid, and B) they aren’t evil, and C) that they honestly want the best outcome for the country, just like you do. If you can do that, you have a chance to be enlightened a little. > > Do you know why I hang out on this message board, despite the constant sneering jibes and angry attacks I suffer for just making my opinion known? Because it beats the hell out of hanging out in an echo chamber, being slapped on the back by fellow travelers. You learn _nothing_ that way. > > If you can’t air your ideas in front of a critical audience and defend them, perhaps they need a little work. If you want to tighten your thinking and expose your own logical flaws, don’t give your thoughts to people inclined to give you an atta-boy - give your thoughts to the people disposed to picking them apart and telling you why you’re wrong. > > There seems to be an attitude on this board of late that the conservatives who are here are the enemy, that they’re annoying gadflies who must be mocked and driven away so the right-thinking people can get back to telling each other how smart they are. That attitude comes from intellectual weakness. If you can’t tolerate, with good grace, respect, and humility, people who oppose what you have to say and are willing to defend the opposing point of view, then perhaps your opinions are not as solidly grounded as you believe they are. > > I believe the increase in partisanship we’ve seen in the internet era has to do with the Balkanization of political dialog. We all used to start by getting our information from the same sources, and we’d diverge in opinion from there. Now, we all have our own biased sources. We all used to have to debate in the same public sphere, where you had to show tolerance for the opinions of others (and _hear_ the opinions of others). That at least forced a little healthy introspection. But now the righties run off to Free Republic and watch Fox News, and the Lefties run off to Kos and watch Keith Olbermann, and they all close themselves into their little echo chambers and work themselves into a froth. > > The SDMB was always a board in the middle - a last bastion of independent debate where both sides could duke it out and find out what makes each other tick. That was an extremely valuable ground to hold - one that’s increasingly rare. It’s also one that has the best chance to promote the philosophy of this board, which is to fight ignorance. > > Unfortunately, that role is almost gone. The right has been slowly pushed away from this board for several years, and the left’s growing demographic strength and increasingly hostile attitude is accelerating the pace. Soon, it will be yet another tiresome echo chamber of the left, with everyone repeating the same arguments uncritically to each other and patting themselves on the back for being so obviously right and smart that opposing viewpoints need not even be considered. > > And that’s a damned shame. **Sam** , thank you for saying how I feel so eloquently. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/42 "2008-09-07T00:25:18Z")
> [@A\_shameful\_cracka](#): > > A big cause of the problem is neither side wants to admit the weaknesses of their chosen side, That may be true, but I am _more than twice_ as ready to admit the weaknesses of the other side, so it balances. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/43 "2008-09-07T00:29:56Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The right has been slowly pushed away from this board for several years, and the left’s growing demographic strength and increasingly hostile attitude is accelerating the pace. Soon, it will be yet another tiresome echo chamber of the left, with everyone repeating the same arguments uncritically to each other and patting themselves on the back for being so obviously right and smart that opposing viewpoints need not even be considered. People have been saying this for 5-6 years now, and it hasn’t happened. I’ve been around for a bit, and the board has leaned a bit left the entire time. So, I’m not buying it. After all, _you’re_ still here. The only conspicuous right-wing ideologues who have bailed have been the stupid ones. Some of the stupid ones are still here. Most of the intelligent ones are still here. The board is still mostly left. The latter does not surprise me. [Partisan comment]People who put the seeking of truth and facts over ideology are more likely to be liberals. As Stephen Colbert put it, "facts have a well-known liberal bias.[/Partisan comment] ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/44 "2008-09-07T00:31:18Z")
> [@fisha](#): > > **Sam** , thank you for saying how I feel so eloquently. Seconded. Excellent post, **Sam**. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/45 "2008-09-07T00:37:58Z")
You know, **Sam** , if I were inclined to grow up, I’d want to be just like you. 🙂 Thanks for a superb post. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/46 "2008-09-07T00:42:10Z")
> [@A\_shameful\_cracka](#): > > Likewise, I don’t see any Democrats admitting that Obama IS light on experience, that he too has changed his position on important issues for political expediency, **that he does seem out-of-touch with small-town America** , and that he is far closer to being a typical politician than a “Washington Outsider”. Biden is a perfect example of a career politician and he has built his long career on kissing the butt of corporate America to enrich his home state. I’ve got no huge problem with the rest of the quote, but what observations support the bolded opinion? What could Obama do or say to indicate to you that he’s in touch with small town America? I ask because, in my assessment, small town concerns pretty much align with those articulated by Obama in his campaign. -The solutions he proposes don’t always align with small town thinking, but that doesn’t say “out of touch” to me as much as “coming from a different point of view.” **Sampiro** - I’m so using _Obamajadin_. I probably won’t credit you. **Knorf** - I’ve been around for a bit also, and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/47 "2008-09-07T00:52:00Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’ve got no huge problem with the rest of the quote, but what observations support the bolded opinion? What could Obama do or say to indicate to you that he’s in touch with small town America? > > I ask because, in my assessment, small town concerns pretty much align with those articulated by Obama in his campaign. -The solutions he proposes don’t always align with small town thinking, but that doesn’t say “out of touch” to me as much as “coming from a different point of view.” > **Sampiro** - I’m so using _Obamajadin_. I probably won’t credit you. > > **Knorf** - I’ve been around for a bit also, and I agree. His statement that people in small town America cling to religion and guns instead of issues that should be more important to them is what I’m basing this on. He doesn’t seem to realize that a lot of working-class people really feel strongly about religion and gun control, and they’re not just being avoidant of their real problems. It gave the impression that he believed that if there was a good economy, good jobs, and good healthcare available to these people, religion and guns wouldn’t be as important to them, which I don’t think is true. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/48 "2008-09-07T01:21:10Z")
> [@A\_shameful\_cracka](#): > > His statement that people in small town America cling to religion and guns instead of issues that should be more important to them is what I’m basing this on. He doesn’t seem to realize that a lot of working-class people really feel strongly about religion and gun control, and they’re not just being avoidant of their real problems. It gave the impression that he believed that if there was a good economy, good jobs, and good healthcare available to these people, religion and guns wouldn’t be as important to them, which I don’t think is true. He didn’t say we cling to religion and guns to avoid our real problems. He said we _vote_ on those issues because we feel we can exert some ballot-box control over them, unlike with the economy. He was talking about how inaction by Washington on real economic issues creates cynicism and apathy regarding government, and how that’s exploited through the use of “hot button” issues by equally cynical politicians. Here’s Obama’s remarks [in context](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.html) as delivered at a fundraiser in California: > [@](#): > > **originally orated by Barack Obama** > \*Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by – it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism. > > But – so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What’s the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is – so, we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing – close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide health care for every American. So we’ll go down a series of talking points. > > But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.\* It was an unprepared remark made to a friendly crowd of supporters attempting to explain to them why blue collar workers (and small town Americans) are tough sells on promises of economic recovery. He admitted afterward that it was poorly phrased and not meant to denigrate the sensibilities he was describing, but the Clinton and McCain campaign had a field day with it any way. Shouldn’t be a basis on which to judge the man’s understanding of small towners and working stiffs. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/49 "2008-09-07T01:28:05Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > People have been saying this for 5-6 years now, and it hasn’t happened. I’ve been around for a bit, and the board has leaned a bit left the entire time. > > So, I’m not buying it. Trust me, we’ve lost a lot of very good conservative posters. > [@](#): > > After all, _you’re_ still here. The only conspicuous right-wing ideologues who have bailed have been the stupid ones. Or maybe the ones that are left are just more thick-skinned or stubborn and refuse to concede the ground. > [@](#): > > [Partisan comment]People who put the seeking of truth and facts over ideology are more likely to be liberals. As Stephen Colbert put it, "facts have a well-known liberal bias.[/Partisan comment] The notion that the facts are all on your side is exactly the kind of close-minded dogma that I’m talking about. The minute you start believing your own press and assume that there’s no question you are right is the minute you stop learning and just become another voice in the echo chamber. I’m certain that statement won’t change your mind, because that partisan quip indicates that your mind is no longer capable of being changed. I for one don’t think all the facts are on my side. I think some are. I’m a libertarian-conservative because I think on balance my analysis of what works and what doesn’t leads me there. But I’m not dogmatic about any single fact. I read a lot of conservative journals and books, and I’m fully aware of the power of confirmation bias. That’s why I come here. When I formulate an opinion, I have a strong desire to test it against others who don’t share the same beliefs to see what I may have missed. Someone above just said that conservatives are unwilling to admit that Palin has any shortcomings. Well, that’s what a combative message board does - it polarizes people. My wife and I just finished having a nice calm discussion about Governor Palin’s various faults over supper. I certainly recognize them. Unfortunately, serious, reasoned discussion of them is impossible here, because I know the other side would not discuss them in good faith, or reciprocate with an honest discussion of Obama’s faults so that we could bat them back and forth like adults and educate ourselves. Instead, there would be jeering and sneering and anything I offered up would be used as ammunition against me and the other side would still give no ground. The result is that the only debate that’s possible here is adversarial debate, where each side stakes out their unbending opinion and seeks to tear down the other side. It’s better than nothing, but it could be so much better if everyone was willing to behave like there was at least an outside chance that they don’t have all the answers and that the other side is populated by evil troglodytes who simply must be crushed at all cost. I started out the McCain/Obama debates by declaring that I didn’t really have a favorite, and that I saw lots to like in Obama and lots to dislike in McCain. But the arguments for Obama and against McCain quickly became so strident and over the top that I along with everyone else was forced to choose a side and hold my ground with the rest. It’s either that, or be steamrollered. That too is a damned shame. It may be an unavoidable problem on a large message board. This may sound ‘elitist’, but far too many people hold incredibly strong political opinions based on sound bites and snippets of ‘facts’ they hear from their side. They are completely unable to hold a serious intellectual debate on the underlying issues or treat the subject with any kind of nuance. So perhaps it’s not surprising that when challenged they just become more strident and yell louder. The level of anger someone brings to a debate is often correlated with a weak understanding of what it is they are debating. They are insecure and have no depth to their strongly-held beliefs, and have no choice but to defend them by dismissing the other side completely. It’s the internet equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and going, “lalalalalala”. There are people like this on both sides, and perhaps when a message board reaches a certain level of popularity you collect enough of them that they simply drown out the debate. Just try to not be one of them. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/50 "2008-09-07T01:28:16Z")
ohmygod **xeno**!!! HI, guy!!! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/51 "2008-09-07T01:33:08Z")
Hey **wring**! What’s shakin’? Want a nice Chardonnay while you’re here? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/52 "2008-09-07T01:41:28Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Hey **wring**! What’s shakin’? Want a nice Chardonnay while you’re here? absofuckinglutely!!! having one now, have the same email, still live in mid MI- let’s talk!!! ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/53 "2008-09-07T01:47:35Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > It was an unprepared remark made to a friendly crowd of supporters attempting to explain to them why blue collar workers (and small town Americans) are tough sells on promises of economic recovery. He admitted afterward that it was poorly phrased and not meant to denigrate the sensibilities he was describing, but the Clinton and McCain campaign had a field day with it any way. I don’t believe those issues are sublimated frustration from having no good jobs, though. There are people who are doing quite well, with no economic frustration, who feel that these issues (immigration, gun control, religion) are the most important. I can get that these issues may be more important to these people because they are cynical about either party’s ability to help their economic situation, but there are plenty of people who would vote against someone who they honestly believed would help the economy more than their opponent if that person was also for greater gun control. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/54 "2008-09-07T01:54:56Z")
> [@A\_shameful\_cracka](#): > > …there are plenty of people who would vote against someone who they honestly believed would help the economy more than their opponent if that person was also for greater gun control. Do you get the feeling that Obama does or doesn’t understand that? I acknowledge that he _disagrees_ with that prioritization, but I don’t see any indication that he doesn’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/55 "2008-09-07T02:37:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But now the righties run off to Free Republic and watch Fox News, and the Lefties run off to Kos and watch Keith Olbermann, and they all close themselves into their little echo chambers and work themselves into a froth. In that the Lefties win-Olbermann is far, far better looking than anyone on Fox. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/56 "2008-09-07T02:44:03Z")
I’m lucky in that I work for a lot of Republicans, in a fairly Red state (Kansas). Some of these folks I’ve known for 20 or more years, and we are able to have reasoned, respectful discussions and maintain our friendship. I don’t know if that is possible on a text forum. By the way, one of my friends - a wealthy physician - has come around on the need for national health care. At least on the SDMB we get to see actual political debate, something that has vanished from TV, where people shout talking points at each other, from both the left and right. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/57 "2008-09-07T02:44:15Z")
> [@wring](#): > > absofuckinglutely!!! having one now, have the same email, still live in mid MI- let’s talk!!! Hey, can I play? I’m havin’ a salad and some nice Pinot Grigio as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/58 "2008-09-07T02:52:27Z")
Hope you enjoy your wine, **SA**. (And that it’s not one of those really sweet Pinot Grigios, but one of the nice spicy, full bodied ones…) [/non-partisan good will] ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/59 "2008-09-07T03:09:54Z")
I couldn’t say, to tell you the truth. A certain woman I know who doesn’t like sweet anything doesn’t like it, but she didn’t complain that it was too sweet. In fact, now that I think about it, none of the women I know don’t like any of the pinot grigios I’ve served them, and they almost always prefer the chardonnays. Something to think about, huh? P.S. - There’s an apartment house here called _The Chardonnay_. It has a beautiful, sandblasted wooden sign depicting RED grapes!!! The horror! I can hardly stand it! 😉 [/non-partisan good will right back atcha] ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/60 "2008-09-07T03:11:07Z")
Double post. Never mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332.md?page=4)