# Fellow Obama-ites: let's be nicer to tighty righties **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332 "2008-09-06T12:28:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/101 "2008-09-07T21:11:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Who is this “we,” white man? Two wrongs don’t make a right? Don’t stoop to their level and prove yourself to be no better? > > I’m Dem, and not pleased with my fellow Dems and how they are acting. I’ll vote for the big O because I want to, not because Dems like to start a jillion threads bashing McCain and mostly just patting each other on the back and saying “good one! Heh, heh, did you watch Stewart and Colbert last night? They rocked! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!” Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/102 "2008-09-07T21:18:02Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Ok, Elitists then. They deserve respect why? As I said, because they’ve been right and your side wrong. Factually, practically, and morally. Your side has pretty much become the living embodiment of the old joke, “Watch him very carefully. Then do the exact opposite, and you’ll never be wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/103 "2008-09-07T21:24:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As I said, because they’ve been right and your side wrong. Factually, practically, and morally. > > Your side has pretty much become the living embodiment of the old joke, “Watch him very carefully. Then do the exact opposite, and you’ll never be wrong.” That’s surprising coming from you. Elitists deserve respect because they “know better”? What happened to the usual “Power to the People” and “Screw the Man” rhetoric you usually spout? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/104 "2008-09-07T21:25:59Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Who is this “we,” white man? Two wrongs don’t make a right? Don’t stoop to their level and prove yourself to be no better? > > I’m Dem, and not pleased with my fellow Dems and how they are acting. I’ll vote for the big O because I want to, not because Dems like to start a jillion threads bashing McCain and mostly just patting each other on the back and saying “good one! Heh, heh, did you watch Stewart and Colbert last night? They rocked! LOLOLOLOLOLOL!” And to follow up on 'They didn’t rock?", I need to know if you expect the Dems to open up a jillion threads talking about McCain actually being not so bad and ripping each other a new asshole. “Hey, **RTFirefly** , fuck off with your links to polls showing Obama leading in battleground states! And **Shayna** , who needs your big-assed providing of cites for what you claim about Obama? Just keep your fucking leftie mouths shut tight okay–I’m trying to watch a ballgame here.” Is this what you expect Democrats to do here? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/105 "2008-09-07T21:47:22Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > That’s surprising coming from you. Elitists deserve respect because they “know better”? What happened to the usual “Power to the People” and “Screw the Man” rhetoric you usually spout? This has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with being right. Facts are facts, and an “elitist” who opposes torture and mass murder is taking a morally superior position to someone who supports them, elitist or not. And I have no idea where you got the idea that I think much of the American people. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/106 "2008-09-07T21:54:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I have no idea where you got the idea that I think much of the American people. Why don’t you leave? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/107 "2008-09-07T21:58:41Z")
Why are you people still feeding the troll? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/108 "2008-09-07T22:01:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with being right. Facts are facts, and an “elitist” who opposes torture and mass murder is taking a morally superior position to someone who supports them, elitist or not. > > And I have no idea where you got the idea that I think much of the American people. Well I think highly of the countrymen I know, but unlike our future first lady, I’m _not_ proud of my country. But I’d like to be proud again. To repeat what I said upthread: [quote] _originally posted by **xeno** _: We’ve given consideration, as a group, to…[ul][li]the idea of nuking Afghanistan and Pakistan,[_]the practicality and effect of decimating the population of Afghanistan in the Roman sense of that word,[_]the idea that we should deliberately stay ignorant regarding the grievances and aspirations which generate recruits for terrorist organizations,[_]the idea that our country should torture suspects and deny them due process,[_]the idea that we should invade a country which had never attacked us, depose its leader and occupy its lands because we _suspected_ they might have nerve gas and might want to develop nuclear weapons.[/ul][/li][/quote] Those are immoral and foolish ideas which, once entertained as “rational” are toxic not only to civil debate but to civil liberties. They have no place in intelligent political discourse and shame on this country for receiving them without evident ridicule or irony. When will we return to liberty in this country? Surely not until we hang -figuratively or literally- the purveyors of this poison. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/109 "2008-09-07T22:14:26Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > And to follow up on 'They didn’t rock?", I need to know if you expect the Dems to open up a jillion threads talking about McCain actually being not so bad and ripping each other a new asshole. > > “Hey, **RTFirefly** , fuck off with your links to polls showing Obama leading in battleground states! And **Shayna** , who needs your big-assed providing of cites for what you claim about Obama? Just keep your fucking leftie mouths shut tight okay–I’m trying to watch a ballgame here.” > > Is this what you expect Democrats to do here? Why? Or, they could just keep their stupid mouths shut, yes. I’m sick of being told I’m stupid for listening to what democrats say on a silly message board because, you know, it’s just a silly message board. Because, you know, even though this is a silly message board you are on that silly message board telling me not to listen to what people say on silly message boards but I am supposed to listen to your silly message to me on the silly message board on which I am not supposed to pay any attention because it is a silly message board. Let the monkeys fling their poo all over the damn place and ignore it, because, you know, it’s just a message board. It’s not a respectable board dedicated to acting like adults and fighting ignorance or anything. If I agree, I should listen. If I don’t agree, I should ignore it because it’s just a silly message board and I should vote your way anyway or I’m “unfit to be a voter.” Place cracks me up sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/110 "2008-09-07T22:21:22Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Or, they could just keep their stupid mouths shut, yes. You want people on a message board to shut their mouths? Wouldn’t that be a silence board? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/111 "2008-09-07T22:23:49Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Why are you people still feeding the troll? It’s a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/112 "2008-09-07T22:35:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Fellow Obama-ites: let’s be nicer to tighty righties I love it. Way to go,PRR. I guess you’ve never learned that ad hominem attacks are an open admission that what was said originally was correct. Since you can’t refute it, you attack the messenger. Thank you for openly admitting that the conservative viewpoint is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/113 "2008-09-07T22:42:59Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I love it. > > Way to go,PRR. I guess you’ve never learned that ad hominem attacks are an open admission that what was said originally was correct. Since you can’t refute it, you attack the messenger. Thank you for openly admitting that the conservative viewpoint is correct. Hardly. Is calling Nazis scum an admission they were correct ? Calling someone names . . . means you’ve called them names. Nothing more. And the “conservative” viewpoint, as exemplified by the ones in power has been a dismal failure on all levels. Hardly “correct”. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/114 "2008-09-07T22:54:12Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Respect is earned, not owed. Can you explain how Chadonnay sipping, arugula eating, East coast elitists have earned respect? By not being **Carol Stream**. A dreadfully low bar, I know, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/115 "2008-09-07T22:59:10Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > By not being **Carol Stream**. A dreadfully low bar, I know, but there it is. Way to answer the question. Why do you suppose that eleanor rigby thinks she deserves respect? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/116 "2008-09-07T23:30:53Z")
Well, for a second there I thought some actual communication might take place. Those of you on the right and left engaging in this silly sniping, thanks for doing what you do best and destroying any possibility to find common ground. Good work. **RTFirefly:** Thanks for trying. I do appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/117 "2008-09-07T23:31:35Z")
* * * > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > There seems to be an attitude on this board of late that the conservatives who are here are the enemy, that they’re annoying gadflies who must be mocked and driven away so the right-thinking people can get back to telling each other how smart they are. That attitude comes from intellectual weakness. If you can’t tolerate, with good grace, respect, and humility, people who oppose what you have to say and are willing to defend the opposing point of view, then perhaps your opinions are not as solidly grounded as you believe they are. I would tend to agree with this statement, noting however, that among a number of “conservative” posters, too, hatred and scorn has been the hallmark of their posts–and continues so to this day. Look at all the posters in the threads related to this thread’s theme who bring up the matter of being called traitor or fool for having opposed the Iraq invasion in 2002 and early 2003. There are still Right leaning posters who continue to post along those lines. Back in the days of the Clinton impeachment proceedings, there were a lot more Right wing posters and they included many who were every bit as stupid/hateful as the stupid/hateful Lefties posting today. D’you know when I noticed the disappearance of Right leaning posters? When the amount of information that Bush and Company had lied us into Iraq and then thoroughly mismanaged the occupation began to become overwhelming. I do NOT think that they were driven off by TRUTH, but I do think that they simply could not face either defending the indefensible or admitting previous errors. (Several Right-leaning posters who remain actually have posted that they have had to change their opinion of Bush and his policies. A few of the Right leaning posters who remain continue to be as stupid/hateful as several of the more obnoxious Left leaning posters.) > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I believe the increase in partisanship we’ve seen in the internet era has to do with the Balkanization of political dialog. We all used to start by getting our information from the same sources, and we’d diverge in opinion from there. Now, we all have our own biased sources. We all used to have to debate in the same public sphere, where you had to show tolerance for the opinions of others (and _hear_ the opinions of others). That at least forced a little healthy introspection. But now the righties run off to Free Republic and watch Fox News, and the Lefties run off to Kos and watch Keith Olbermann, and they all close themselves into their little echo chambers and work themselves into a froth. This, I believe, is very accurate. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Unfortunately, that role is almost gone. The right has been slowly pushed away from this board for several years, and the left’s growing demographic strength and increasingly hostile attitude is accelerating the pace. Soon, it will be yet another tiresome echo chamber of the left, with everyone repeating the same arguments uncritically to each other and patting themselves on the back for being so obviously right and smart that opposing viewpoints need not even be considered. > > And that’s a damned shame. I would mostly agree with this, except that I would note that there was not nearly as much pushing from the Left as pushing from the news. As I noted, I think it just got difficult for some posters to deal with the news from Baghdad and Washington. This is not to say that all felt that way or that the Left had TRUTH on its side, only that after crying (or watching quietly as fellow believers cried) “traitor,” “fool,” “Islamist apologist,” or whatever for so long, they found it difficult to continue posting in this forum. (I suspect that **RTFirefly** ’s position might confirm your beliefs, but I am not really saying exactly the same thing that he is; I do not claim that eight years of “evil” chased away Right leaning posters, only that there were a few topics that were so prevalent in which the Bush claims were so spectacularly wrong that it made ongoing participation difficult.) I have no love for the screamers on the Left (and if you vist the periodic **Pit** threads in my honor, you will find posts from that crowd very much in evidence), but I am having a difficult time swallowing the claims that the Right was simply “chased away.” > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The notion that the facts are all on your side is exactly the kind of close-minded dogma that I’m talking about. The minute you start believing your own press and assume that there’s no question you are right is the minute you stop learning and just become another voice in the echo chamber. Very true. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Unfortunately, serious, reasoned discussion of them is **impossible** here, because I know the other side would not discuss them in good faith, or reciprocate with an honest discussion of Obama’s faults so that we could bat them back and forth like adults and educate ourselves. Instead, there would be jeering and sneering and anything I offered up would be used as ammunition against me and the other side would still give no ground. bolding mine Contains truth, but is not strictly true. It is more difficult, of course, but the conversation can still be carried forth simply by ignoring the shrillest, silliest voices. There is already one poster in GD (frequently associated with the Left, but actually a bit of an odd duck that hates both ends of the political spectrum but rails against the Right because they currently hold the White House and the Supreme Court), who is generally ignored by all but the newest posters. That poster is so shrill and so obviously unconnected to reality that most folks simply do not respond to the poster’s submissions. There are a couple of posters on the Left and Right whom I do not engage except to correct clear errors of fact. It can be difficult to do that, but it is not impossible. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/118 "2008-09-07T23:42:42Z")
I began composing the previous post just after the second post of **Sam Stone** ’s to which I responded and had not yet seen the nonsense involving the stone throwers before I hit Submit. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/119 "2008-09-07T23:47:04Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Way to answer the question. Why do you suppose that eleanor rigby thinks she deserves respect? I am actually going to address this retarded comment. Two things: First of all, I don’t “think I deserve respect”, I know I deserve respect. Furthermore, I know I am respected, both here and in RL for my actions, my character and my role in my community, my family and my job. Secondly, I don’t deserve respect for drinking Chardonnay (which I don’t like and can’t spell), arugula (ditto) and for living on the east coast. I don’t live there. It was a humorous remark made lightheartedly with my real point (when have the conservatives here ever shown us respect? Hell, when have the conservatives in RL shown liberals respect?) being not humorous in the least. I mistakenly thought that the mix of the two would be obvious. How wrong I was. I am interested (mildly) in knowing why you think I think I deserve respect. I’m curious by nature, so I’ll play. Why do you think “I think I deserve respect”? **levdrakon** –I cannot speak for other Dems or liberals here, but for myself I will say that being castigated however civilly in the Pit for the very behavior that is not only rampant but endemic by the so called injuried party broke the back of my patience and forbearance. Enough is enough. Take the mote out of your eye and all that is what I say to this tempest in teapot. Very well posted **tomndeb.** I agree that the polarization gets us nowhere\*, but I am still waiting for some personal ownership from the conservative side that perhaps they have been extreme in their vocalizations and insults. I do not see why this is all one sided. Yes, they may be outnumbered, but they make up for that in vociferousness. I don’t normally take part in political debates because I get angry and start to snipe. I am not “one of the usual suspects” when it comes to derailments of issues threads. But this whole airing of grievances has tried me sorely. \*which begs the question: where do we want to go? What is the goal of political threads? Scoring points off your opponent? Fighting ignorance? Providing a another POV? All 3? None of the above? Surely the end goal decides the tone and content. I’m not at all sure that any poster here has started a political thread with strictly information and education of all in mind. I’d like to see some of those kind of threads. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-obama-ites-lets-be-nicer-to-tighty-righties/462332/120 "2008-09-08T00:07:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It could be possible that conservatives do think they’ve gotten the best of the argument, but the other side doesn’t agree. 80% of Americans think the country is “on the wrong track”. > [@](#): > > That’s what happens when neither side is really listening at all, but simply ‘bebating’ in terms of trying to probe for weakness and fire salvos at the other side. No one’s arguments ‘win’. It’s all just bluster and sniping. No, “bluster and sniping” comes from people who don’t have the facts on their sides. The problem isn’t failure to listen to what you have to say, it’s that what you have to say is bullshit. Facts do have a real existence, outside the realm of simple debate - even what that debate is, from at least one side, simple denial of facts and assertion of fantasy. The contentiousness you personally so often encounter here isn’t “both sides refusing to listen”, it’s \*your \*refusing to listen. You may find it comforting to say, as you so often do, that you’re being picked on for being “conservative”, but you’re not - people are trying to fight your ignorance, and you’re refusing. > [@](#): > > \Here’s a good example - the left portrays Katrina as a huge failure of the Bush Administration. The right portrays it as a failure of the state government and the mayor of New Orleans. Both sides think they have the correct set of ‘facts’. Neither side is willing to give ground. Why? Because the Katrina disaster is too valuable of a political weapon for either side to let go of. Utter horseshit. Yes, Katrina was a human disaster. The failure/refusal of the Bush Administration to do anything of significance to help rebuild NO is the fault of the Bush Administration. Some of us believe in assessing responsibility where it belongs, even when it falls on ourselves. You have never, ever done that - it’s always some fucking excuse to foist off responsibility on somebody else. How’s that search for Saddam’s WMD’s coming? You remember, the ones you spent literally years insisting were there, only to back off to some lame story about how “everyone” thought they were there, and they could have been there, and things just happen, let’s move on? Those? That’s just one example of how you still have not been able to accept the concept of fact. No more of this “Well, both ‘sides’ do it” from you. Learn to accept responsibility for your actions and statements. Learn what reality means. Accept that there \*is \*a reality. Or accept that your utter lack of credibility here is totally the result of your own actions and statements, not “the other side’s”. > [@](#): > > There’s some truth to that, but there’s also the fact that Bush took power just as the dot-com boom melted down, and globalization is presenting challenges that again aren’t really partisan. And yet, at the time, you were crowing about how the recession was Clinton’s fault, due to some business cycle theory, and that Bush’s brilliant economic plans would lead the country to new heights of prosperity, etc. You may not wish to remember that load of horseshit, but there are those of us who do. So can you explain your change of mind here, if in fact that is what it is, and not merely another reality-free attempt to have something that appears to be a “debate”? > [@](#): > > \And the fact is, he presided over 8 years without a recession and with pretty god economic growth. House prices are still higher than they were four years ago. While incomes are flat, benefits have risen. God Almighty, you’re serious! When come back, bring facts. Not lies. “Without a recession”? You’re really serious. > [@](#): > > There’s plenty if you’re willing to listen. And plenty of things Republicans have done too. You don’t have a monopoly on the truth. When you can present something that is the truth, as a result of a legitimate truth-finding process and not your usual simple partisan talking points, you can say that. You have not, and obviously just don’t give a damn. > [@](#): > > And that seems to be the response of just about every other government on the planet, too. Remember the Kyoto Treaty? You were strongly against that at the time, remember? It was going to be economically disastrous, remember? yet “just about every other government on the planet” is going ahead with it. Fact, Sam, facts. Your Saint Ronald used to call them “stupid things”. He was wrong. The \*facts \*aren’t what’s stupid. > [@](#): > > This is an issue that really makes my point - the true debate is very complex, having to do with poorly understood science Another common talking point. A fine excuse to continue doing nothing. But still another of your inveterate lies. > [@](#): > > I tried very carefully to not claim that this was a ‘righties vs lefties’ argument. If you had, that would be a first for you. But you didn’t. You have spouted the usual righty talking points that conveniently let the righties and the government they have created off the hook for any responsibility for their actions or positions. > [@](#): > > I was pointing out the forces that cause both sides of the debate to shut down. If you were discussing matters that really were one opinion vs. another, you might have a point. But those matters are all fact vs. fantasy. They are not equivalent. Fact wins. Deniers of fact lose. You lose. > [@](#): > > I think the left has been a little more strident and angry than the right simply because the right has been in power, and therefore on the defensive. You don’t fucking get that, either. People who care about their country and the world are angry at those who have fucked it up so heavily in so many ways, and refused to accept their responsibility for it. It is not about power, but about the utter misuse of that power. Something you are utterly unable to grasp, as all the last eight years have shown. And that inability to let your ignorance be fought is your own fault, nobody else’s. > [@](#): > > If Obama is elected, the left will be forced into the mode of having to defend his mistakes (and all presidents make mistakes), and the right will become more energized. It is not possible to conceive of Obama, or anyone for that matter, screwing up so totally. Nor is it possible for anyone but a tighty righty like yourself dismissing the monstrosity of this administration as “mistakes”, as if they were contained, small, disconnected events in an essentially-decent whole. Yet that’s all you are capable of admitting, and it’s doubtful you even agree fully. > [@](#): > > And it’s always easier to claim the mantle of truth when its’ theoretical. It’s easier to pick at the party in power and claim your ideas are obviously better when there’s no way to test it. We have “tested your ideas” for almost 8 years now. The results have been disastrous. That’s not “theoretical”. > [@](#): > > It’s much harder to be the one constantly defending policies which, in the real world, are never so perfect that the opposition can’t find plenty of legitimate gripes against them. So if Obama is elected, maybe the positions will reverse. We’ll see. Aggressive war, economic disintegration, torture, environmental destruction, etc. are just “not so perfect”? Grow the fuck up. Or at least get the fuck out of your comfortable little cocoon up there. Get some clue about how this “reality” stuff works, what a “fact” is, what “responsibility” is. Or keep being a laughingstock. 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