# Fellow Trump voters: How do you think the Donald is doing so far. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 10, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849 "2017-03-10T07:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/301 "2017-03-13T17:27:31Z")
Nope. Look: People who say ‘illegals’ when referring to illegal aliens tend to belong to a certain group. _They_ see nothing wrong with the word and its usage. But when other people hear them use it, they are put into a category. Some people are proud to belong to that category. Others would prefer not to be stereotyped. If those people do not want to be associated with a certain category, they can stop saying ‘illegals’. If they don’t care, or are proud of being lumped in that category, they can use it. But they can’t complain when people hear them and decide they are bigots, ‘low-information voters’, or anything else associated with the category of people who are most associated with using the term. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/302 "2017-03-13T17:36:01Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If they don’t care, or are proud of being lumped in that category, they can use it. But they can’t complain when people hear them and decide they are bigots, ‘low-information voters’, or anything else associated with the category of people who are most associated with using the term. I can’t help but notice that you used the noun “bigots” there instead of an adjectival phrase like “bigoted individuals”. (I mean, I don’t see that one is more pejorative than the other – but I’m curious as to whether you’re doing that because you think one of those is pejorative and the other wouldn’t be.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/303 "2017-03-13T17:38:54Z")
:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > bigot, noun, a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. The noun specifically refers to a person. In any case, if you want to be associated with that group, that’s your choice. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/304 "2017-03-13T17:39:29Z")
BTW- I can’t stand Trump the man and I can’t stand Trump the president. But this is exactly the kind of hairsplitting talk (about how to talk) that gave “political correctness” a bad name. And allowed people like Trump to use the term to club to death all normal standards of decency. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/305 "2017-03-13T17:43:13Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But you said “illegal aliens” is accurate. Surely what’s pejorative about “illegals” is merely whatever is pejorative about accurately noting that some aliens are “illegal”. You may think so, but you’d be wrong. Similarly, it’s acceptable to refer to a male homosexual as “a gay man” but not “a gay”. Illegals vs illegal aliens has a further wrinkle in that illegal alien suggests that the illegality pertains to the alienness, while illegal subsumes the entire identity. Words have power and how we group people affects how we think about people. Marking an entire population as being illegal leads us down a dark path. Ask Germany about it sometime. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/306 "2017-03-13T17:52:53Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Marking an entire population as being illegal leads us down a dark path. Ask Germany about it sometime. Wait, marking an entire population _of “illegal aliens”_ as being “illegal” leads us down a dark path? All this time, I thought the lesson to learn from Germany was something other than “broad-brush adjectives are fine, but not broad-brush nouns.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/307 "2017-03-13T18:00:36Z")
Yes because you’re no longer differentiating the offense from the person. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/308 "2017-03-13T18:18:09Z")
But, look, as per your line about Germany, I thought the problem back then wasn’t whether Jews were to be called parasitical or parasites, or monsters or monstrous; or whether “subhuman” or “inferior” were getting thrown around as adjectives or nouns. I’d always thought the problem was that they were _wrong._ To liken saying “illegal” about people who _in fact are_ illegal aliens seems to blur over that. If we catch you committing a felony, we call you a felon – a person, but defined by that offense – just like we call a criminal a criminal, or whatever. Surely the Germans you invoked were guilty of more than undifferentiating accuracy? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/309 "2017-03-13T18:43:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But, look, as per your line about Germany, I thought the problem back then wasn’t whether Jews were to be called parasitical or parasites, or monsters or monstrous; or whether “subhuman” or “inferior” were getting thrown around as adjectives or nouns. I’d always thought the problem was that they were _wrong._ > > To liken saying “illegal” about people who _in fact are_ illegal aliens seems to blur over that. If we catch you committing a felony, we call you a felon – a person, but defined by that offense – just like we call a criminal a criminal, or whatever. Surely the Germans you invoked were guilty of more than undifferentiating accuracy? And calling black people niggers is offensive but, you know, technically accurate, because a nigger is just a black person, right? I’m sure in 1939, in many social circles, Jews weren’t referred to as subhuman, or monsters, or parasites, but simply as _Jews_. Everything else you’re saying was implied. Any time you draw a line between _us_ and _them_ it’s ripe for abuse, because it makes it easier to stop thinking about _them_ as real people. And yes, this includes criminals, or felons, or “illegals.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/310 "2017-03-13T19:39:45Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And calling black people niggers is offensive but, you know, technically accurate, because a nigger is just a black person, right? Uh . . . no? What’s being objected to is using the same word as a noun instead of as an adjective. The word you’re tossing around there is objectionable as _either,_ ain’t it? Is anyone out there cool with it as one but not as the other? > [@](#): > > Any time you draw a line between _us_ and _them_ it’s ripe for abuse, because it makes it easier to stop thinking about _them_ as real people. And yes, this includes criminals, or felons, or “illegals.” Well, look, the other fella was just now drawing a line with “bigots” as the other. And, as this is the SDMB, I doubt anyone would object if I simply and accurately referred to Trump as “a liar” instead of taking the time to specify that he’s a man who tells a lot of lies. Or if some Republican got called out as a hypocrite. Or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/311 "2017-03-13T20:09:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What’s being objected to is using the same word as a noun instead of as an adjective. The word you’re tossing around there is objectionable as _either,_ ain’t it? Is anyone out there cool with it as one but not as the other? I’ll admit, people are coming at you from all different directions on this. Maybe I shouldn’t have jumped into the fray. I don’t think people object to “illegal” as a descriptor because of some sort of language purity thing. The difference between the shorthand and longhand is that “illegal immigrant” has maintained a certain level of sterility, while _illegal_ is seen as simply a snarl word. The distinction between adjective/noun is only brought up as a rebuttal to the eye-batting defense that people aren’t using it as a snarl word. If you don’t mean to snarl, the logic goes, then why go out of your way to use improper grammar? It comes off as a dog-whistle, a way to say one thing but maintain plausible deniability. To me, it doesn’t make a difference, in the same way that “There are a lot of Jews on the East side of town” might be a completely sterile statement if I’m telling someone where to get a good bagel, but means something else if I’m at a Klan rally. In the latter case, I’d be counting on, and reinforcing, my listeners’ existing prejudices. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, look, the other fella was just now drawing a line with “bigots” as the other. And, as this is the SDMB, I doubt anyone would object if I simply and accurately referred to Trump as “a liar” instead of taking the time to specify that he’s a man who tells a lot of lies. Or if some Republican got called out as a hypocrite. Or whatever. Indeed, there’s been a lot of talk during and since the campaign, most notably after the deplorables incident, about not painting all Trump voters with the same broad brush for precisely this reason – when you dismiss all Trump supporters as bigots, then you stop thinking of them as people you can reason with, people who may have voted in rational self-interest, and ultimately people in general. They just become “them,” who must be defeated at all costs, and that’s clearly not healthy. Although I’ll draw a distinction here. “Bigot” describes a person who exhibits certain behaviors, “illegal” as shorthand for “illegal immigrant” just describes a state of being, especially in the case of undocumented minors who didn’t consent to being brought to the US. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/312 "2017-03-13T21:40:53Z")
Maybe we should refer to armed robbery as “unauthorized redistribution”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/313 "2017-03-13T23:06:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Stop using the constitution to justify your biases. The constitution is not a divine document handed down from heaven to the founding fathers. The founding fathers were not omniscient or perfect. We know this because the constitution required multiple amendments (most recently in 1992) and could stand with a few more. It’s a good document, but it’s not a perfect document. > > Now, since you are so dedicated to drawing conclusions based on facts, did you read the links provided by other posters that present scientific evidenced on transgenderism? > > Do you agree with or do you dispute the scientific findings? If the latter, on what basis do you disagree with the scientific findings? If you disagree based on your personal beliefs, how do you justify that while making the claim that your beliefs are informed by “fact-based” data? > > I look forward to your thoughtful response. You realize the Constitution has a mechanism for modification? Get to modifying it. Beats a government of judges. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/314 "2017-03-13T23:47:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You realize the Constitution has a mechanism for modification? Get to modifying it. **Beats a government of judges.** Which is also in the Constitution. If you don’t like it, there’s a mechanism for Modification. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/315 "2017-03-14T00:12:40Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > …And allowed people like Trump to use the term to club to death all normal standards of decency. Thing is, they’re gonna do it anyway. We aren’t empowering or permitting anyone to do anything, far less are we compelling them. At one time, I knew several persons of a conservative bent that I respected. This lot, they don’t qualify. So I sometimes cringe at excessive verbal force. But again, they aren’t waiting for my permission. And if these people get their way, others will suffer, and of that lot, some of them will die. This is not the utter indifference of the tumbling dice, this is by intent, by design, by insisting. The stakes are too high for tea and doilies. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/316 "2017-03-14T00:15:33Z")
Judges: In the Constitution. Rich Entitled Thieves: Not So Much. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/317 "2017-03-14T00:20:07Z")
That’s under the “general welfare” clause. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/318 "2017-03-14T02:38:02Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Judges: In the Constitution. > > Rich Entitled Thieves: Not So Much. That shit was written by slaveowners. You better believe “rich entitled thieves” is in there. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/319 "2017-03-14T03:43:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That shit was written by slaveowners. You better believe “rich entitled thieves” is in there. Yes, Jefferson is so famous for his advocacy of iron-fisted authority. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/320 "2017-03-14T03:50:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, look, the other fella was just now drawing a line with “bigots” as the other. And, as this is the SDMB, I doubt anyone would object if I simply and accurately referred to Trump as “a liar” instead of taking the time to specify that he’s a man who tells a lot of lies. Or if some Republican got called out as a hypocrite. Or whatever. One important difference there is, if I’m calling Trump a liar, a bigot, or a hypocrite, I’m _trying_ to be insulting to him, so if there’s a distinction between how offensive a word is when used as a noun versus an adjective, I’m mostly okay with that. And if that usage is offensive to the larger liar/bigot/hypocrite community… I’m _also_ okay with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849.md?page=17)