# Fellow Trump voters: How do you think the Donald is doing so far. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 10, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849 "2017-03-10T07:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/21 "2017-03-10T15:13:05Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > {…} > \*Repealed a ridiculous last-day rule passed by the Obama administration which banned wildlife hunters from using lead bullets {…} I’m quite sure that you’ll have no problem citing that “the Obama administration banned wildlife hunters from using lead bullets” . . . as opposed to something that’s not quite as broad as _your_ wording might suggest? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/22 "2017-03-10T15:16:06Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You should know by now that all good Republicans consider those bogus numbers. That may be, but it’s hard to argue with closing prices of the DJIA by date. That’s why I was actually surprised that a Trump supporter would actually AGREE that the DJIA is an effective measure of the Presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/23 "2017-03-10T15:16:35Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > the droppings of illegal crossing at the Southern Border by over 40%, which will save more money for the taxpayers. You mean \*cost \*more money to taxpayers, I think: [Immigrants illegally in the U.S.](https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/study-undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes)collectively contribute nearly $12 billion each year to state and local tax coffers, according to a new report that challenges recent election cycle rhetoric. The study from the Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy found that immigrants in the U.S. without legal permission kick in their billions in the form of income, property, sales or excise taxes. There were roughly 11 million immigrants estimated to be in the U.S. illegally as of 2013, according to the report. And each and every state collects at least a few million dollars from tax payments made by such immigrants each year, ranging from Montana’s $2.2 million to California’s $3.2 billion. Illegal aliens pay taxes but don’t collect benefits. That’s a huge net positive to the tax base. Also, net negative migration (as in, more illegal immigrants left the country than entered) started in 2005, and has remained negative (I believe) every year since then. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/24 "2017-03-10T15:19:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you would measure an effective Presidency by looking at the increase in the DJIA and the amount of jobs created during the term(s) of office? > [@ckalli1998](#): > > Yes I would, but I would also keep in mind to look at the correlation-causation evidence, and there is plenty here So, then Obama’s looking pretty good to you right now? > **[stock market by president - Bing](http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=mq8G6BwM&id=9A4ED4A260FDF4C489AD92B9BB08437A1273F4BE&q=stock%2Bmarket%2Bby%2Bpresident&simid=608026388205471526&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0)** > > Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you. > **[stock market by president - Bing](http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=mq8G6BwM&id=9A4ED4A260FDF4C489AD92B9BB08437A1273F4BE&q=stock%2Bmarket%2Bby%2Bpresident&simid=608026388205471526&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0)** > > Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/25 "2017-03-10T15:24:58Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m quite sure that you’ll have no problem citing that “the Obama administration banned wildlife hunters from using lead bullets” . . . as opposed to something that’s not quite as broad as _your_ wording might suggest? > > CMC fnord! Specifically, on January 19, the Obama administration passed a rule banning hunters from using lead ammo on federal lands, including national parks and wildlife refuges. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/26 "2017-03-10T15:30:35Z")
When do you think he’ll fulfil his [campaign promises](http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/23/trump-definitively-forsakes-his-promise) to release his tax returns? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/27 "2017-03-10T15:34:29Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Specifically, on January 19, the Obama administration passed a rule banning hunters from using lead ammo on federal lands, including national parks and wildlife refuges. Oh yes, I already fact checked that, now is the above even vaguely similar to this? > [@ckalli1998](#): > > {…} the Obama administration {…} banned wildlife hunters from using lead bullets {…} CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/28 "2017-03-10T15:34:47Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Specifically, on January 19, the Obama administration passed a rule banning hunters from using lead ammo on federal lands, including national parks and wildlife refuges. So wildlife hunters can only hunt on federal lands? That’s news to me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/29 "2017-03-10T15:37:46Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Specifically, on January 19, the Obama administration passed a rule banning hunters from using lead ammo on federal lands, including national parks and wildlife refuges. So what? Hunting is an activity of leisure. It’s a luxury, not a necessity. People who choose to hunt have a certain obligation to be stewards of the environment and ecosystem they enjoy. As I understand it, most responsible hunters and outdoorsmen see it just that way. I’d like to see exact numbers of those who chose to stop hunting because ammo became prohibitively expensive. I’m betting it’s negligible. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/30 "2017-03-10T15:38:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You mean \*cost \*more money to taxpayers, I think: > > [Immigrants illegally in the U.S.](https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/study-undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes)collectively contribute nearly $12 billion each year to state and local tax coffers, according to a new report that challenges recent election cycle rhetoric. > > The study from the Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy found that immigrants in the U.S. without legal permission kick in their billions in the form of income, property, sales or excise taxes. > > There were roughly 11 million immigrants estimated to be in the U.S. illegally as of 2013, according to the report. And each and every state collects at least a few million dollars from tax payments made by such immigrants each year, ranging from Montana’s $2.2 million to California’s $3.2 billion. > > Illegal aliens pay taxes but don’t collect benefits. That’s a huge net positive to the tax base. > > Also, net negative migration (as in, more illegal immigrants left the country than entered) started in 2005, and has remained negative (I believe) every year since then. Well, while millions of illegal aliens do file tax returns, a great many of them don’t actually pay taxes, although I’m not disputing some do. [About 6.1 Million Illegals Filed Taxes in US–Many Didn’t Pay, Received Refunds](http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/james-agresti/about-61-million-illegals-filed-taxes-us-many-didnt-pay-received-refunds)Federal government data shows that while roughly half of illegal immigrants file federal tax returns, the vast majority of them don’t pay any federal income taxes. Instead, they use these returns to claim refundable tax credits, which are a form of cash welfare. In other words, illegal immigrants mainly use the federal income tax code to collect money from U.S. citizens. Another aspect is rounding up illegal aliens takes a lot of government time and money, although I won’t argue it’s wastefully spent, as the ICE should enforce the law against illegals who violate it. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/31 "2017-03-10T15:39:54Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > So, then Obama’s looking pretty good to you right now? > > [stock market by president - Search](http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=mq8G6BwM&id=9A4ED4A260FDF4C489AD92B9BB08437A1273F4BE&q=stock+market+by+president&simid=608026388205471526&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0) > > [stock market by president - Search](http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=mq8G6BwM&id=9A4ED4A260FDF4C489AD92B9BB08437A1273F4BE&q=stock+market+by+president&simid=608026388205471526&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0) Better links. Also, should have said “Bill Clinton and Obama looking pretty good” > **[Dow Jones - DJIA - 100 Year Historical Chart](https://www.macrotrends.net/1319/dow-jones-100-year-historical-chart)** > > Interactive chart of the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) stock market index for the last 100 years. Historical data is inflation-adjusted using the headline CPI and each data point represents the month-end closing value. The current month is... > **[Jobs created during U.S. presidential terms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_created_during_U.S._presidential_terms)** > > Politicians and pundits frequently refer to the ability of the president of the United States to "create jobs" in the U.S. during his term in office. > The numbers are most often seen during the election season or in regard to a president's economic legacy. The numbers typically used and most frequently cited by economists are total nonfarm payroll employment numbers as collected by the Bureau of Labor Statistics on a monthly and annual basis. The BLS also provides numbers for private-sector n ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/32 "2017-03-10T15:42:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So what? > > Hunting is an activity of leisure. It’s a luxury, not a necessity. People who choose to hunt have a certain obligation to be stewards of the environment and ecosystem they enjoy. As I understand it, most responsible hunters and outdoorsmen see it just that way. > > I’d like to see exact numbers of those who chose to stop hunting because ammo became prohibitively expensive. I’m betting it’s negligible. It would hurt the economy, particularly small-business owners who sell that kind of ammunition. In California alone, where the Democrats in Sacramento banning hunters from hunting with lead ammo _anywhere_, with the lead to be phased out by 2019, a reliable and methodical study done demonstrated that the increased ammunition price of non-lead ammunition would drive roughly 36 percent of hunters to decrease their activities, or stop hunting altogether. ([http://nssf.org/share/PDF/CA-Alternative-Ammo-Impacts\_9-15-2014.pdf](http://nssf.org/share/PDF/CA-Alternative-Ammo-Impacts_9-15-2014.pdf)) ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/33 "2017-03-10T15:44:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s fair I guess. I just wonder if you were similarly encouraged by the 150% increase of the DJIA and the creation of 11 million jobs during the last Presidency? I knew you’d likely bring that up, that’s why I specifically mentioned the correlation-causation factor. Obviously, I’m glad that 11 million net jobs were created under Obama, but I’m not pleased or impressed that he was the first president to leave office without seeing a 3% growth in GDP minimum. There is also still a debate among economists as to whether his big-spending proposals, such as the stimulus, ultimately advanced the economy. ([https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/did-the-stimulus-work-a-review-of-the-nine-best-studies-on-the-subject/2011/08/16/gIQAThbibJ\_blog.html?utm\_term=.dd8212d197bb](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/did-the-stimulus-work-a-review-of-the-nine-best-studies-on-the-subject/2011/08/16/gIQAThbibJ_blog.html?utm_term=.dd8212d197bb)) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/34 "2017-03-10T15:45:32Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Well, while millions of illegal aliens do file tax returns, a great many of them don’t actually pay taxes, although I’m not disputing some do. You pay taxes even if you don’t file tax returns–have you noticed that when you buy something, you pay more than the listed price? That’s a sales tax. And even if you pay exactly the listed price, such as when you fill your tank, you’re still paying an excise tax. And if you buy property, you pay property tax, whether you file a tax return or not. Illegal immigrants aren’t exempt from paying those taxes. Do you think the taxes immigrants pay more than make up for the tax credits they receive? Hint: “Undocumented immigrants’ nationwide average effective tax rate is an estimated 8 percent,” the report said. “To put this in perspective, the top 1 percent of taxpayers pay an average nationwide effective tax rate of just 5.4 percent.” ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/35 "2017-03-10T15:47:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > When do you think he’ll fulfil his [campaign promises](http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/23/trump-definitively-forsakes-his-promise) to release his tax returns? Maybe, although I don’t think there’s anything nefarious to be found in them, despite what liberals would want the public to believe. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/36 "2017-03-10T15:50:25Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > Well, while millions of illegal aliens do file tax returns, a great many of them don’t actually pay taxes, although I’m not disputing some do. > [About 6.1 Million Illegals Filed Taxes in US–Many Didn’t Pay, Received Refunds](http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/james-agresti/about-61-million-illegals-filed-taxes-us-many-didnt-pay-received-refunds)Federal government data shows that while roughly half of illegal immigrants file federal tax returns, the vast majority of them don’t pay any federal income taxes. Instead, they use these returns to claim refundable tax credits, which are a form of cash welfare. In other words, illegal immigrants mainly use the federal income tax code to collect money from U.S. citizens. > > Another aspect is rounding up illegal aliens takes a lot of government time and money, although I won’t argue it’s wastefully spent, as the ICE should enforce the law against illegals who violate it. From your link. > [@](#): > > Because illegal immigration is often covert, reliable data on it is scarce. In the words of the Congressional Budget Office, figures for the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. “are subject to considerable uncertainty.” > > It is difficult to determine the income taxes of illegal immigrants who file tax returns by fraudulently using Social Security numbers. And yet they come up with “accurate” numbers while discrediting others who attempt estimates off the same numbers. Also notice the profligate use of weasel words such as “suggests” and “probably”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/37 "2017-03-10T15:51:07Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > I’m not pleased or impressed that he was the first president to leave office without seeing a 3% growth in GDP minimum. Average real GDP growth since 1945 has been 2.9%. And GDP growth under Obama was positive. So, mathematically, how exactly can every president except Obama have overseen more than 3% GDP growth? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/38 "2017-03-10T15:51:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Also, net negative migration (as in, more illegal immigrants left the country than entered) started in 2005, and has remained negative (I believe) every year since then. Cite? (other than Pew Research speculation) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/39 "2017-03-10T15:54:17Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Cite? (other than Pew Research speculation) If you don’t like Pew Research then you won’t like my cite. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849/40 "2017-03-10T15:55:23Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > It would hurt the economy, particularly small-business owners who sell that kind of ammunition. > > In California alone, where the Democrats in Sacramento banning hunters from hunting with lead ammo _anywhere_, with the lead to be phased out by 2019, a reliable and methodical study done demonstrated that the increased ammunition price of non-lead ammunition would drive roughly 36 percent of hunters to decrease their activities, or stop hunting altogether. ([http://nssf.org/share/PDF/CA-Alternative-Ammo-Impacts\_9-15-2014.pdf](http://nssf.org/share/PDF/CA-Alternative-Ammo-Impacts_9-15-2014.pdf)) About as reliable as environmental impact studies funded by the oil & gas industries. And even if these numbers were to be accurate, still don’t give a damn. Sorry. (Not really). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fellow-trump-voters-how-do-you-think-the-donald-is-doing-so-far/781849.md?page=3)