# Female and Male Nouns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106 "2003-05-28T20:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/21 "2003-05-29T11:36:41Z")
English still has a remnant of gender for some nouns (wait **er** , wait **ress** , etc.) and for pronouns (he, she, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/22 "2003-05-29T11:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Monty \* > **English still has a remnant of gender for some nouns (wait**er_\*, wait **ress** , etc.) and for pronouns (he, she, etc.). \*\* Not to mention that countries and ships are feminine in english. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/23 "2003-05-29T13:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > English still has a remnant of gender for some nouns (waiter, waitress, etc.) and for pronouns (he, she, etc.). Still, that is only an aspect of the word and directly signifies the sex of the one or thing it applies to. > [@](#): > > Not to mention that countries and ships are feminine in english. And this is more of a nautical tradition rather than a grammatical state. It s prefectly permissable, and probably preferred for people not really associated with the boat to refer to it as “it”. ---
**Author:** ![Nate\_the\_Great](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ea924/32.png) [@Nate\_the\_Great](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nate_the_Great)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/24 "2003-05-29T14:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apollon \* > \*\*I have my own little theory no what things are what gender in german. These rules apply only to original German words though, not borrowed ones, how ever long ago they might have been borrowed. > . . . > Of course there are other rules that supercede mine: words that end in -in and -ung for example, will always be feminine, -rich always masculine, etc. > > \*\* Your theory is entirely your own. No serious linguists make generalizations about the relationship between the gender of a noun and it’s semantic meaning or sexual qualities. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/25 "2003-05-29T16:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nate the Great \* > \*\*Your theory is entirely your own. No serious linguists make generalizations about the relationship between the gender of a noun and it’s semantic meaning or sexual qualities. \*\* heh… of course it is my own. I even said so. 😉 Serious linguists don’t do that? Perhaps, but then, I’m no linguist myself, let alone a serious one. 😛 What remains is that things DO have genders, and they DO have to come from somewhere. Those ancient people surely didn’t throw dices and flip coins to decide them. We know that our ancestors tended to project human attributes into nature and objects of their daily life. It’s called anthropomorphism. It even happens today, just observe how people talk about computer stuff. My computer freaked out, and my computer wants this and that etc. Also: the division between sex and gender is valid, tough perhaps only for a select few languages, like english, or, say, italian (sesso/genere). There is no such division in german (geschlecht) or greek (phylo) (two languages I speak). Sex and gender has the same word in those languages. Then you say I generalise, which I did not. I proposed a rule for a limited set of words (for one thing, I excluded borrowed words, composites and body parts). I am positive that there are even more sets of words that follow their own rules. For example, the word Schwert (sword) does not seem to follow my theory, since it is neuter while it ought to be masculine. Lastly: the German language is very ancient. When the English language formed out of a whole array of older languages (including german), there was already a literary culture. The Christian belief system surely contributed its own. When german first formed, people were pagans, they believed in spirits, in animated objects, tree gods and water nymphs. They also strongly believed that sexes have fundamentally different qualities, and that these qualities derive from laws that govern every aspect of nature and even their gods. I suspect you took offense at me saying that softness or venom are feminine attributes. I can only say this: do we know today that both males and females are equally venomous? Yes. Did the patriarchal peoples of ancient Germany think way different than we do today? Most probably. Of course I would never dare to publish this primitive little theory of mine. But I’m convinced that the division of things into genders can not be random, and that things that are of either gender, must in some way reflect some of their gender attributes. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/26 "2003-05-29T16:44:16Z")
Here’s a way to reduce your confusion as you learn a new language: Stop using the terms “male” and “female”—Instead,think of each new word you learn as being either “Red” and “blue” gender. No teachers use these terms, of course, but it would really help beginner students. In french, if the word ends in the letter E, it is a “blue” gender, and so you add an E to adjectives to match the E on the noun. Dont ask sexy questions, just follow the stupid rules, and you learn faster. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/27 "2003-05-29T16:56:24Z")
Quoth **Jomo Mojo** : > [@](#): > > Only masculine and feminine nouns for humans and deities take the accusative case ending when they are the direct object of a verb. Neuter nouns when direct objects are in the nominative or unmarked case. Intriguing. Essentially the same thing occurs in Latin: Neuter nouns are considered to have both nominative and accusative cases, but the forms are always, without exception, identical. Is there some logical fundamental reason why nominative and accusative should be equivalent for neuter objects, which both the Romans (or, I suppose, the Tuscans) and the Tamil speakers picked up on? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/28 "2003-05-29T17:08:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apollon \* > \*\* > Lastly: the German language is very ancient. When the English language formed out of a whole array of older languages (including german), there was already a literary culture. The Christian belief system surely contributed its own. > When german first formed, people were pagans, they believed in spirits, in animated objects, tree gods and water nymphs. \*\* Everybody sing! Rubbish. Trash. Stuff and nonsense! Rubbish. Trash. Stuff and nonsense! The German language is no older than English. Indeed, I could make a case that German is YOUNGER than English since modern German may have only begun with Martin Luther. What gumball machine did you get your “education” in history from? Fly your theories about the “age” of German vs. the “age” of English past some professional linguists and historians. Tell me just how hard and long they laugh at you. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/29 "2003-05-29T17:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Everybody sing! > > Rubbish. > Trash. > Stuff and nonsense! > > Rubbish. > Trash. > Stuff and nonsense! > > The German language is no older than English. Indeed, I could make a case that German is YOUNGER than English since modern German may have only begun with Martin Luther. What gumball machine did you get your “education” in history from? > > Fly your theories about the “age” of German vs. the “age” of English past some professional linguists and historians. Tell me just how hard and long they laugh at you. \*\* I apologise for my free use of the term “german”. Of course, _modern_ german is no older than Luther. But it stands in the tradition of the teutonic language group. Surely you won’t claim that german came out of nothing. There are significant differences between “german” and “middle german” and what existed before. Just as there are differences between modern and ancient greek. Of course you are right to paint me stupid for applying the term “german” to something that clearly was but a collection of precursor dialects. May I join your chanting choir? I still suspect that the parting of things into genders is way older than the norming effects of the popularity of Luther’s (and other printed) works. I can’t imagine scholars to assign genders to chairs, tables and pots when “devising” a “new” language. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/30 "2003-05-29T17:40:04Z")
I fear a disclaimer is in order, although I never pretended to be an expert, or even educated, smart or knowing. So feel free to correct, make fun of, or point out errors, as I have no formal education in history and linguistics. Just proposing my modest ideas to see what remains after you guys are done with them. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/31 "2003-05-29T18:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnBckWLD \* > **I understand Scandanavian (Swede / Finn / Norwegian) nouns have somewhere between 9 and 14 ways of saying the.** No. First of all, Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language, completely unrelated to Swedish and Norwegian. The Scandinavian languages are Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic and Faroese. I don’t understand Icelandic or Faroese, but the mainland Scandinavian languages don’t come close to 9 to 14 ways of saying “the”. In Norwegian it runs like this: For a noun alone:[ul] [li]masculine: mann, mann **en** (the man) [/li][li]feminine: ku, ku **a** (the cow)[/li][li]neuter: skap, skap **et** (the cabinet) [/li][/ul] For a noun with an adjective:[ul] [li]masculine: **den** høye mann **en** (the tall man)[/li][li]feminine: **den** hvite ku **a** (the white cow)[/li][li]neuter: **det** store skap **et** (the large cabinet)[/li][/ul] So you can either count that as either two or six ways of expressing the concept of “the”, depending on whether you count each gender separately or not. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/32 "2003-05-29T19:03:38Z")
Maybe the ways will amout to 14 if you count all the Scandinavian languages together 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kri\_kla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/edb3f5/32.png) [@Kri\_kla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kri_kla)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/33 "2003-05-29T20:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnBckWLD \* > \*\*I understand Scandanavian (Swede / Finn / Norwegian) nouns have somewhere between 9 and 14 ways of saying the. > \*\* Actually, Finnish has no articles whatsoever, so that makes it 0 ways. Finnish nouns do have 11 different declensions (22 if you count the plural forms). For example, there are no words corresponding to _in_, _at_ or _from_ in Finnish, the nouns themselves are modified. ---
**Author:** ![sickboy51](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sickboy51](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sickboy51)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/34 "2003-05-29T21:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by urban1z \* > **In this case, though, wouldn’t it be El pap** á_\*? > The accent is what makes the difference. Similarly, mama = breast, while mam **á** = mama (as in mother). > > Bob \*\* No, because one thing is “EL Papa” (the pope, you know, Carol Woyjtyla and the stuff) and other things is “el papá” (the daddy). The accent chnges the meaning too. And in this case, the emphasis should go in the first silabe in Papa (pope) and on the second in papá (daddy). ---
**Author:** ![pasunejen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/58956e/32.png) [@pasunejen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pasunejen)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/35 "2003-05-29T21:35:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apollon \* > \*\*Of course, _modern_ german is no older than Luther. But it stands in the tradition of the teutonic language group. Surely you won’t claim that german came out of nothing. There are significant differences between “german” and “middle german” and what existed before. Just as there are differences between modern and ancient greek. > I still suspect that the parting of things into genders is way older than the norming effects of the popularity of Luther’s (and other printed) works. I can’t imagine scholars to assign genders to chairs, tables and pots when “devising” a “new” language. \*\* I’m pretty sure dogface’s point is not that German came out of nothing, but that any attempt to put a specific age on a language necessarily involves extreme simplification of linguistic reality–while it’s useful to classify a language as modern, old, middle, and so on, in order to describe a set of features that generally characterized it at that time, but there is always significant overlap; language change tends to happen very gradually, often with different grammatical forms for the same construct existing side by side until one wins out. Also, German and English definitely have the same roots as far as this particular debate is concerned, and I’m pretty sure (though not absolutely positive) that the branch of Germanic we know as English held onto gender distinctions for a significant period of time after it became recognizable as a language in its own right. There was never a point at which someone “devised” the English language, or any other non-artificial language for that matter–it evolved slowly out of Proto-Germanic, both losing and gaining grammatical features on the way, and German did the same thing, just in different ways. As for the original post, it really is fascinating–gender systems are extremely frequently attested in the world’s languages, but as far as I know nobody’s come up with a satisfactory scholarly explanation as to why… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/36 "2003-05-29T23:00:18Z")
smiling bandit, you posted: > [@](#): > > English still has a remnant of gender for some nouns (waiter, waitress, etc.) and for pronouns (he, she, etc.). Still, that is only an aspect of the word and directly signifies the sex of the one or thing it applies to. [/quote] That would be one definition of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/37 "2003-05-30T15:45:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apollon \* > \*\*I apologise for my free use of the term “german”. Of course, _modern_ german is no older than Luther. But it stands in the tradition of the teutonic language group. Surely you won’t claim that german came out of nothing. There are significant differences between “german” and “middle german” and what existed before. Just as there are differences between modern and ancient greek. \*\* And the history of English is _ **AS LONG AS THAT OF GERMAN’S** _ The “teutonic” language group (aka the “High German” branch of the West Germanic Group) is NO OLDER AT ALL than is English branch of the West Germanic Group. That is the specific stupid claim of yours that I was disputing. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/38 "2003-05-30T18:37:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*And the history of English is _ **AS LONG AS THAT OF GERMAN’S** _ > > The “teutonic” language group (aka the “High German” branch of the West Germanic Group) is NO OLDER AT ALL than is English branch of the West Germanic Group. That is the specific stupid claim of yours that I was disputing. \*\* alrighty 😉 btw, just out of curiosity, when is a claim stupid and when merely wrong? since i’m far from being educated, i can only suspect that what i said was utterly horrible, otherwise you wouldn’t react so violently outraged. something almost as unspeakable as, say, the claim that symphonies are named thusly because several movements are played in a row. 😃 oh, the fun… _covers head with pot and starts running for the next exit_ ---
**Author:** ![mok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mok)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/39 "2003-05-30T20:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sickboy51 \* > \*\*No, because one thing is “EL Papa” (the pope, you know, Carol Woyjtyla and the stuff) \*\* Hijack/nit: Bingo on the Spanish, but let me correct your Polish. The Pope’s given name is Karol Wojtyla (the “L” in his last name has a slash through it). Pronounced phonetically as "KAH-rohl voy-TEE-wah (since Polish is phonetic, the spelling you have given would be pronounced something like “TSAH-rohl voh-ih-y-TEE-wah”, all h’s silent). Nit mode done, hope y’all learned something 🙂 -mok ---
**Author:** ![mok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mok)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106/40 "2003-05-30T21:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jbuell \* > \*\*I was wondering why many other languages assign sexes to nouns? For example in Spanish, “chair” is female (la silla). \*\* Although it was alluded to in passing in **RedNaxela** ’s original reply to the OP, Swahili and the Bantu languages are an interesting case in point here. In those languages, the gender system isn’t limited to two or three types corresponding to masculine, feminine, and possibly neuter. In the Bantu tongues, there can be well over a _dozen_ of these types (which then become technically known as “classes” rather than “genders”). But the rules for dealing with them, and their semantic correspondences, are parallel to and an extension of the more familiar gender system. In technical terms, from [http://www.iath.virginia.edu/swahili/intro.html:](http://www.iath.virginia.edu/swahili/intro.html:) > [@](#): > > Among systems of linguistic categorization, noun class systems (including systems of grammatical gender, as in German or Arabic) are usually defined as follows: > > (a) all nouns in the language are divided into a small and closed set of classes, signalled by inflectional morphology; > (b) the class of a noun is obligatorily co-referenced on other elements in the sentence via grammatical agreement Note that there is a LOT of disagreement, discussion, and even flat-out argument among linguists about whether noun classes, including genders, have any semantic significance – that is, whether they actually “mean” anything. The answer “why do languages have gender and classification?” can be answered in a couple ways, historically (what linguists call diachronically) and functionally (loosely, what linguists call synchronically). Diachronically, genders and classes often exist because an earlier version of the language might have had common helper or classifier words that over time merged to become suffixes or prefixes. Other historical reasons might include borrowing from neighboring languages, or the existence of social distinctions in previous versions of the language which are no longer reflected in the modern language. All these can be reasons “why” a modern language might have a particular gender construction. In other words: in the old tongue, the genders might have meant something else, or they might have been contracted or “slurred” from old phrases equivalent to “he-bear” and “she-bear”. Synchronically, genders and classes exist because they provide a way of identifying which nouns go with with adjectives, and provide a means of distinguishing between otherwise identical words. They serve to help maintain clarity of utterances, avoid ambiguity, maintain the structural consistency of the grammar, and in many cases carry meaning. In English, for example (which _does_ have gender) gender can indicate the natural gender of a person or animal which might not otherwise be apparent in a sentence. If Spanish didn’t have gendered articles, for example, Pope and potato _would_ be identical. Clear as mud, I hope. -mok [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-and-male-nouns/178106.md?page=3)