# female equivalent of brethren **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2001, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061 "2001-06-25T07:39:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/1 "2001-06-25T07:39:27Z")
“Brethren” is apparently an archaic plural of brother, dating from the [12th century](http://www.m-w.com/). What would be the equivalent plural for sister? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/2 "2001-06-25T08:19:44Z")
Sistren I’ve heard/seen it used many times. Sure, it isn’t as archaicly justified as brethren, but it stands to reason that there would have been little reason for a plural of sister in those times, as the only sororital (is that a word?) organizations I can think of would be nuns (assuming nuns were around then). ---
**Author:** ![boomvark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@boomvark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boomvark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/3 "2001-06-25T08:22:56Z")
Cistern? ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/4 "2001-06-25T12:49:11Z")
Sorority. From the Greek **soros** , meaning “sister.” ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/5 "2001-06-25T13:38:58Z")
Thanks for the response, this was bugging me. **rasta** , I think sorority is closer to sisterhood; very similar but more of an organization than just sisters. Like fire brigade vs firefighters. **walrus** :[Sistren](http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=sistren) appears to be correct, dating from Chaucer. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/6 "2001-06-25T15:45:33Z")
This reminds me of a B. Kliban cartoon I saw once: A bunch of Amish men standing around a big well. The caption? “Brethren and Cistern” ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2001, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/7 "2001-06-25T21:59:55Z")
I don’t disagree that the term _sistren_ corresponds to the term _brethren_, but _sistren_ has become obsolete while _brethren_ is still in use. So the phrase “brethren and sistren” is not current English. DISCLAIMERS: I don’t think it’s fair that men have their own word and women don’t. I don’t know why it happened that way, but it did. I’ve heard the phrase “brethren and sistren” (or “sistern”) used in public settings (almost always in church) but never as a serious address – it was always intended as mild humor. Admittedly the term _brethren_ is archaic – note the concurrent use of the much more common term _brothers_, while a similar word, _children_, is still the only recognized plural for _child_. (Nobody says _childs_.) But archaic is not the same as obsolete. In my church (LDS) we address each other as Brother and Sister. If there are only men present the speaker is about equally likely to use _brothers_ as _brethren_. But if there are only women it’s always _sisters_, never _sistern_. Again – I’m not arguing the answer to the question. I’m just pointing out that going around saying _brethren and sistern_ sounds affected. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/8 "2001-06-26T00:11:04Z")
In the words of the OED > [@](#): > > In OE. the plural had either the same forms as the singular, or appears as sweostra, -tru, etc. > These subsequently assumed the pl. -n of weak nouns, and gave the common ME. forms sustren, > sostren, sistren, etc. (cf. brethren). In general literary use these were finally discarded about 1550 > in favour of the pl. in -s, which is found as early as c1200. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/9 "2001-06-26T01:10:28Z")
Hmmm. Most people assume “sistren” is a joke rather than a real word. But they get it, don’t they? And it is attested in Middle English, so–there’s your word. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/10 "2001-06-26T02:18:21Z")
Why not `sistren'? It's grammatical, according to the same rules as `brethren.’ If someone thinks it’s a jocular back-formation, then you can recite them your Chaucer, and let them know that you’re liberal arts degree is bigger: Not fully quyk, nor fully deed they were, But by their coat armure, and by their gear, Heraldes knewe them wel in special, As knights that weren of the blood royál Of Thebes, and of **sistren** tuo i-born. ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/11 "2001-06-26T17:13:15Z")
Coven …Ouch! Stop throwing things… ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/12 "2001-06-26T17:37:45Z")
[DISCLAIMER] I really wasn’t sure where to put this. It seems way too trivial for a GQ, yet definitely seeks a specific answer. So if the mods feel it should be elsewhere, they should do as they see fit. [/DISCLAIMER] I go into a public men’s room, and often notice that when guys are standing at the urinal, and they happen to be wearing shorts–gym, street, casual, whatever–it looks like they’re holding the hem of the right leg in their free hand, because you can see that the right leg is hiked up. Those of you who do this, why? Is it to prevent hitting your pants by mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/13 "2001-06-26T17:51:35Z")
Clearly, this wasn’t the right place to post that question above! Obviously this was supposed to be a new topic, but I was distracted and mistyped. I did try to recall it after pressing submit, by pressing “stop”, but was obviously unsucessful. Work, the curse of the posting classes. Will some kind hearted moderator pull my fat out of the fire and delete that question of mine, before I die of embarrassment. I’ll never be able to show my face here again! ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/14 "2001-06-26T23:54:45Z")
**Pluto** mentioned children. We’ve discussed brethren and sistren. The obvious follow-up: Are there similar archaic plurals for mother and father? Couldn’t find anything relevant on fathren, mothren, fathern, mothern, methren. ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/15 "2001-06-27T06:16:23Z")
Pure speculation, but it’s likely that similar plurals once existed when that was the common way to form plurals. They would not, I’m guessing, have been likely to survive since we don’t tend to talk about fathers and mothers in plural very often. And it’s common words that survive changes in language. A few other plural holdovers from the time when plurals were indicated by vowel changes are mouse/mice, goose/geese, foot/feet – again, words often used in plural form. Brothers and sisters are commonly referenced in plural so “brethren” is barely hanging on while “sistren” is lost. Children are more often than not referenced in plural form and “children” is still going strong. I haven’t really looked at this stuff in a while but a couple of other ‘n’ plurals are oxen and “kine”, an archaic plural for “cow”, with an ‘n’ and a vowel change. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/16 "2001-06-27T06:25:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny Angel \* > **If someone thinks it’s a jocular back-formation, then you can recite them your Chaucer, and let them know that you’re liberal arts degree is bigger:** Mine definitely is, because I recognized the Knight’s Tale without having to look it up… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2001, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-equivalent-of-brethren/70061/17 "2001-06-27T06:34:26Z")
Sorry about the double post…hadn’t thought of this earlier, but -n plurals were fairly common in Middle English: shoon (shoes), eyen (eyes), and so forth. pluto’s comment about more common plurals surviving is echoed almost exactly by J.R.R. Tolkien in one of the appendices to _Lord of the Rings_ – he’s talking about why the plural of “dwarf” is usually “dwarfs” rather than “dwarves” or even something like “dwerrows.” And he’s a hell of an authority on matters of language. 😃 (In fact, the same is true for many forms. Think back on your foreign language studies: all the irregular verbs are words that are used all the time, like “to be” or “to do.”)