# Female Popes
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [December 3, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907 "2004-12-03T15:54:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Level3Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Level3Navigator)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/1 "2004-12-03T15:54:29Z")
In one of his classic columns [about female popes](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_139.html) Cecil wrote the following sentence:
> [@](#):
>
> Sergius later had a son by his teenaged mistress Marozia who became Pope John XI (931-935).
By this is he saying that his teenaged mistress Marozia became a pope, or that the illegitimate son became a pope?
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### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/2 "2004-12-03T15:56:38Z")
> [@Level3Navigator](#):
>
> In one of his classic columns [about female popes](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_139.html) Cecil wrote the following sentence:
>
> By this is he saying that his teenaged mistress Marozia became a pope, or that the illegitimate son became a pope?
The son.
[My CITE](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08426a.htm)
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### Author:  [@Level3Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Level3Navigator)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/3 "2004-12-03T15:58:24Z")
Ah! Got it. Thank you.
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### Author:  [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/4 "2004-12-03T20:29:06Z")
If you are interested in further reading check out E.R.Chamberlin’s book _The Bad Popes_, it has ALL the dirt in it! 😃
Also _The Legend of Pope Joan_ by Peter Stanford. Its a well researched book presenting both pros and cons to the legend.
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### Author:  [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/5 "2004-12-07T13:22:25Z")
Also, in the column Cecil states as regards the St Joan legend:
The story is false, although it was possibly inspired by actual events, about which more in a moment.
But then seemingly fails to follow up on this statement. Unless I’m being particularly ignorant and missing something from the column, what are these actual events that supposedly inspired the legend?
OB
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### Author:  [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/6 "2004-12-07T14:51:14Z")
> [@Oswald Bastable](#):
>
> Also, in the column Cecil states as regards the St Joan legend:
>
> The story is false, although it was possibly inspired by actual events, about which more in a moment.
>
> But then seemingly fails to follow up on this statement. Unless I’m being particularly ignorant and missing something from the column, what are these actual events that supposedly inspired the legend?
>
> OB
Here is what Cecil said later in the column.
> [@](#):
>
> Sergius later had a son by his teenaged mistress Marozia who became Pope John XI (931-935). In 914, according to one chronicler, Marozia’s mother Theodora installed her lover on the papal throne as John X (914-928). (Theodora and Marozia effectively controlled the papacy through their menfolk and may be the source of the Pope Joan legend.)
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### Author:  [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/7 "2004-12-07T17:38:11Z")
> [@Fat Bald Guy](#):
>
> Here is what Cecil said later in the column.
Thanks FBG - I must have had temporary selective blindness, but I couldn’t for the life of me see that…
OB
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/8 "2004-12-07T19:17:26Z")
Cool user name, **Oswald**. I wonder how many people get the reference?
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### Author:  [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/9 "2004-12-07T20:46:58Z")
This is a bit of a hijack, but it’s about the column. Anybody know about the historical accuracy of Mario Puzo’s _The Family_? It’s about Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI) and his children, Cesare and Lucrezia. I have it here, and read it about 2 years ago. It’s chock full of incest and sex in general. I wonder how much is fact, how much is fiction, and how much is conjecture. Any ideas? (Based on Cecil’s column and my memory, the major details are correct.)
[Larry, any relation?]
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### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/10 "2004-12-08T00:10:20Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#):
>
> This is a bit of a hijack, but it’s about the column. Anybody know about the historical accuracy of Mario Puzo’s _The Family_? It’s about Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI) and his children, Cesare and Lucrezia. I have it here, and read it about 2 years ago. It’s chock full of incest and sex in general. I wonder how much is fact, how much is fiction, and how much is conjecture. Any ideas? (Based on Cecil’s column and my memory, the major details are correct.)
>
> [Larry, any relation?]
Accusations of incest against the Borgias were common, & they occured in more than 1 generation of em.
But back then, characters were smeared in ways that would embaress Karl Rove, so who knows?
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### Author:  [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/11 "2004-12-08T14:41:31Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#):
>
> Cool user name, **Oswald**. I wonder how many people get the reference?
Well, [Una](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?userid=4799)’s one of Cecil’s little helpers…
And now - back to the thread…
OB
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-popes/277907/12 "2004-12-08T17:16:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Larry, any relation?
Nope, I’m not even Italian or Spanish. (Spain being the Borgia’s country of origin.) I just happened to be reading a book on Rennaisance history when I signed up for the dope.
BTW, there’s a [new bio](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670033537/qid=1102525915/sr=2-2/ref=pd_ka_b_2_2/002-0288679-5205676) of Lucrezia out. It’s gotten mixed reviews.