# Female teachers having sex With teenage stdents: Whats behind this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625 "2005-01-25T18:39:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/61 "2005-01-27T20:55:06Z")
> [@Little Bird](#): > > **brickbacon** , I was simply trying to make a point with my above statement. I haven’t been around middle school kids for a while now, so I do apologize if I was mistaken in what they fantasize about. But surely you understand that is why I put in more than one example, in case one did not apply to you? Bottom line is, you may fantasize something at any age, but if it actually happened things may turn out badly. For instance, I can fantasize about belittling you about your childish use of the term “retarded” in a grown up forum like Great Debates, but that would probably get me reprimanded by the mods should I actually do so. 😉 I understood your point. In retrospect, I probably should have addressed it in my reply (and have chosen different words to express my disagreement). While I agree that teenagers often wish for things that are foolish, I don’t think that this is one of them. Even as an adult, I sincerely believe that I would have enjoyed such an encounter as a teenager. > [@blowero](#): > > Really? Which one of us just got reprimanded by the moderator? 😛 Devastating comeback! Consider my chops busted. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/62 "2005-01-27T23:09:01Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > The only thing that i tried to point out (badly, it seems) is that this is, in the opinion of \*many \* young men, the coolest thing **ever**. I don’t think anyone’s arguing against that. > [@](#): > > The same hurdle exists when discussing it among men that have grown up, but not out, of that mindset. This may not make sense, but, all things being equal, you saying ‘his teacher had sex with him and got arrested for it’ sounds much like ‘his teacher gave him a million dollars, and got arrested for it.’ A lot of this has to do gender roles, the idea that women provide ‘the brakes’ on sex, etc. A lot of the underlying assumptions are wrong. Some are right, but have no bearing on the criminality of the actions in a civil society. It’s not just boys. A lot of girls think having sex with an older man is the coolest thing ever, too. Again, nobody’s arguing against that. But since it doesn’t justify statutory rape, and it doesn’t prove that it’s impossible for a man to be raped, what’s the point of bringing it up? > [@](#): > > Anyway, ignoring this POV or making light of it doesn’t make it go away. That was basically my point. I think you have it backwards. The people in this thread who you are _defending_ are the ones who are making light of the subject. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/63 "2005-01-28T00:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not just boys. A lot of girls think having sex with an older man is the coolest thing ever, too. Yeah, I can remember having pretty wicked fantasies about a few of the younger male substitutes in middle school (like the ones in their 30s) and then this one when I was in 9th grade. He was probably around 40, but _hot_. Definite fantasies about ‘after school tutoring’. But seriously, as much as my little fantasy world wanted that to happen, it would’ve fucked me up beyond compare if it actually had happened. Some fantasies should never be made into reality. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/64 "2005-01-28T00:38:29Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > It’s not _identical_ to rape, but it’s false to say it has “nothing to do” with it. The reasoning, as I already pointed out, is that a minor is not emotionally qualified to render her or his own consent. Being “unwilling” is not necessary for the crime to occur, because a child is not yet equipped to decide if she or he is willing to engage in adult activities. We are talking about teenagers, aren’t we? If they know what sex is, and what the consequences are, then they can decide whether or not they want to participate in it. > [@](#): > > Not being mature enough to render an informed decision, and being unwilling, are not identical, but neither do they have “nothing to do” with each other. The problem is that the law isn’t concerned with whether these _individuals_ are, in fact, not yet mature enough to make that decision. It only cares whether or not they’ve lived some arbitrary number of years, which is only statistically correlated with their maturity. Tossing out a minor’s consent because of his age is like banning women from jobs that require physical strength - women tend to be weaker than men on average, but that doesn’t mean there are no individual women who can do the job. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/65 "2005-01-28T01:04:32Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I, as a former teenaged boy, am not offended when someone suggests most teenaged boys will happily fuck anything on two legs. It’s just an embarassing, but funny, fact of life. No. It’s not a fact, it’s a generalization based on your personnality when you were a teenager. I’d never have considered sleeping with a 46 yo woman when I was a horny teenager. Not even a 25 yo. That was just plain _old_. Not attractive in the slighest. Even amongst my female peers, I certainly wouldn’t have fucked anything with two legs. I was vastly more selective than that. And I was dreaming of love. Love with sex, sure. But still love. And before you say that I was an exception, my friends were like me. People (including teens) tend to hang out with people with the same mindset. Maybe you and your friends were willing to fuck any woman, but my friends and me were essentially only willing to make love with same age attractive girls we were infatued with. (And a teacher to boot? Fraternizing with the ennemy?) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/66 "2005-01-28T01:11:52Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The likelihood is, if YOU had been seduced by one of your middle-school teachers, you would have been scared witless, and would still be dealing with emotional scars arising from the experience. That’s too is a baseless generalization of the reverse kind. What makes you think that the majority of 16-17 yo who had sex with an older woman are scared for life? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/67 "2005-01-28T01:29:15Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I too, am a bit perplexed at some of the hostility directed at those suggesting that this sort of thing is one of the top fantasies among school age pubescent boys. I know it was for me, and pretty much every guy i knew growing up. Having it as a fantasy is one thing. Having it actually happen and turn out well is altogether another. A lot of kids talk big; I remember. I talked big, too. But _no_ way was I ready for sex of any kind until well after middle school, and thankfully somehow I was mature enough to actually know that. Throw a grown woman into the mix and you’ve got major potential for emotional fuckupage. Any of you who thinks that you or anyone else as middle school students were doing anything at the time besides spewing big talk–and were as far from being “ready” for such a thing to happen as G.W.Bush is from being fiscally responsible–is a fool. Mainly, I think the supposed adolescent fantasy about having sex with a grown woman is a fantasy entertained primarily by _adult_ men, who enjoy pretending in their memory that they were sohpisticated little love pots as adolescents. When I was in middle school, I talked big, but I didn’t really, truly know what I was talking about (being acquainted with only the bare facts of what was involved), and hardly even knew what to fantasize about, other than kissing girls I thougt were cute and fondling boobs and generally vague nakedness. Fooling around with someone my own age would have been probably ok, but having intercourse with a grown woman could only be the result of emotional maniuplation and would have no chance of turning out well emotionally. If the chance to have sex with one of the female teachers I actually knew had presented itself, my main reaction would have probably been “oh, gross!” accompanied by a lot giggling and chortling and making of fun. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/68 "2005-01-28T01:31:53Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s too is a baseless generalization of the reverse kind. What makes you think that the majority of 16-17 yo who had sex with an older woman are scared for life? OMFG. I was talking about _middle school_ students. By the way, do you mean “scarred for life”? “Scared for life” sounds kind of silly, but ok. But yes, I think even for 16-17 years olds, sexual relationships with mature women are very unlikely to be healthy for them. One thing is for sure: they aren’t going to happen “casually,” especially not with one’s teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/69 "2005-01-28T01:35:07Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Some fantasies should never be made into reality. This cannot be emphasized enough. (Hey, we AGREE on something!) I mean, I find Ewan McGregor to be the sexiest thing on the planet. However, if in real life, he actually approached me for a fling, I would indeed turn him down and be pretty damn disgusted, as the man is married. Same for Noah Wyle, or Goran Visnjic. Plenty of women have rape fantasies-doesn’t mean they actually WANT to be raped. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/70 "2005-01-28T01:45:10Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > would’ve fucked me up beyond compare… Feh. No older woman ever fucked _me_ up beyond compare. Now I’m bitter and resentful. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/71 "2005-01-28T02:00:37Z")
I don’t think there’s any great social problem or systemic cause “behind this” if that’s what you mean. There are plenty of weird people acting according to their own particular appetites, fears, & obsessions. We have a large population, & if only a couple of women are known to have done this, than it’s pretty freakin’ rare. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/72 "2005-01-28T02:20:54Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > But yes, I think even for 16-17 years olds, sexual relationships with mature women are very unlikely to be healthy for them. What leads you to think that? Is there any evidence that willing sexual relationships between teenage males and adult women are likely to be unhealthy in any measurable way? I ask because I’ve seen studies, which I’ve cited in previous threads on this topic and will dig up again if you’d like, showing the opposite: that such relationships are only likely to lead to emotional or psychological trouble later in life when the minor is an unwilling participant. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/73 "2005-01-28T07:58:33Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > We are talking about teenagers, aren’t we? Not necessarily. > [@](#): > > If they know what sex is, and what the consequences are, then they can decide whether or not they want to participate in it. Well it’s _possible_ that that can be the case. It’s a judgment call. I just don’t think we can make generalities such as what was suggested earlier, that it’s impossible for a boy to be taken advantage of because “all boys are horny”, and “you know they want it”. It’s not only incorrect, but it’s a horrible double-standard. > [@](#): > > The problem is that the law isn’t concerned with whether these _individuals_ are, in fact, not yet mature enough to make that decision. It only cares whether or not they’ve lived some arbitrary number of years, which is only statistically correlated with their maturity. So how would _you_ write the law? Or would you not have a law, and allow any adult to have sex with any child of his or her choice? > [@](#): > > Tossing out a minor’s consent because of his age is like banning women from jobs that require physical strength - women tend to be weaker than men on average, but that doesn’t mean there are no individual women who can do the job. Nonsense; it’s nothing like that. Minors can’t enter into contracts, either. This is not some wild, mystical concept. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Devastating comeback! Consider my chops busted. It wasn’t a “comeback”. I was simply pointing out that out of the 2 of us, obviously _I_ am not the one who was getting “way too worked up”. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/74 "2005-01-28T11:39:54Z")
You know, the double-standard in this thread is really starting to annoy me. If a teenage girl has sex with a male teacher, our society still seems to automatically assume this is a bad thing and that coercion and rape must have involved. If a teenage boy has sex with a female teacher, a lot of you folks say he’s living out his fantasies and that this is a great thing! I’ve also been involved in the recent threads on rape and we keep running into the assumption that all men want sex and all women don’t. It’s not just here on the SDMB; it’s a stereotype that runs through our culture as a whole. I was an extremely horny teenager who grew into an extremely horny woman. I was also a complete prude as a teenager in part because I was so horny and in my day it was not acceptable for nice young women to be horny. If you think I’m exaggerating, there were times when I was seriously considering going out, finding anything remotely male and willing, and finding out what it was I was missing. Wanting something, even when you’re doing so with every nerve and every cell in your body screaming for touch, is not the same as being willing to act on it. Coercion and pressure can also be used. I’ve actually fantasized about being the student who’s “willing to do \*anything \* to avoid failing!” :heavy breathing: In real life, if a teacher made such an offer, I’d be skeeved out and offended, although it could be a fun game with a trusted partner. Oh, by the way, my lads, I’ll let you in on a dirty little secret. We don’t actually \*need \* you guys to be erect to have sex with you. You have fingers, tongues, and lips, and if need be we can rub against you until we get off. It is possible for a teacher to rape a student, regardless of what sexes are involved. To say otherwise, to me, does a disservice to men and, as you may have gathered, I rather like men.😉 CJ ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/75 "2005-01-28T12:39:28Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Well it’s _possible_ that that can be the case. It’s a judgment call. I just don’t think we can make generalities such as what was suggested earlier, that it’s impossible for a boy to be taken advantage of because “all boys are horny”, and “you know they want it”. It’s not only incorrect, but it’s a horrible double-standard. Agreed. > [@](#): > > So how would _you_ write the law? Or would you not have a law, and allow any adult to have sex with any child of his or her choice? I would require proof that the alleged victim was _factually_ incapable of giving informed consent. > [@](#): > > Nonsense; it’s nothing like that. What’s the difference? Some women have a lot of physical strength; some don’t. Some 16 year olds have the capacity to decide whether or not they want to have sex; some don’t. Lumping individuals into groups based on their age is no more appropriate than doing it by sex or race. > [@](#): > > Minors can’t enter into contracts, either. This is not some wild, mystical concept. Indeed. There are all kinds of things minors are prohibited from doing because of their age, but what’s your point? One type of discrimination justifies another? > [@Siege](#): > > If a teenage girl has sex with a male teacher, our society still seems to automatically assume this is a bad thing and that coercion and rape must have involved. If a teenage boy has sex with a female teacher, a lot of you folks say he’s living out his fantasies and that this is a great thing! I try to stay away from both of those generalizations myself. Teenage boys and girls can both be either willing or unwilling participants, just like adult men and women. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/76 "2005-01-28T14:58:28Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Oh, by the way, my lads, I’ll let you in on a dirty little secret. We don’t actually \*need \* you guys to be erect to have sex with you. You have fingers, tongues, and lips, and if need be we can rub against you until we get off. So, if we’re at the school dance, and you grind against my leg and get off without my permission I’ve been raped? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/77 "2005-01-28T15:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **Mr2001** said: > The trials and media frenzy surrounding his relationship with Ms. Letourneau probably contributed to that, don’t you think? How many of us would remain content and well-adjusted after seeing our lovers arrested, imprisoned, and having the details of our relationships repeated on every TV screen and newspaper? Lover? Relationship? This kid was twelve years old when LeTourneau sexually abused him. He wasn’t some seventeen year-old who was just shy of the right side of the law, you know. He was a twelve year-old sixth grader when she raped him. Why are you acting like this was just some normal, run of the mill relationship that got way too much publicity and was damaged? This woman is at best an ephebophile and at worst a pedophile. She has raped a _twelve year old boy_. Most twelve year-old boys are just going through puberty or just beginning to hit puberty. They are not fully formed adults, they are not capable of making adult decisions about sexual relationships in general and certainly not with their teachers. Vili Fuluaa did not have the ‘details of his relationship’ repeated on TV and newspaper. The details of his rape at the hands of his teacher were repeated on TV and newspaper. And it sickens me that this sick freak, Mary Kay LeTourneau is actually out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/78 "2005-01-28T16:17:22Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Vili Fuluaa did not have the ‘details of his relationship’ repeated on TV and newspaper. The details of his rape at the hands of his teacher were repeated on TV and newspaper. And it sickens me that this sick freak, Mary Kay LeTourneau is actually out of prison. Believe it or not, he has stated he intends to hook up with her again. I’m not saying what she did wasn’t reprehensible, or that he wasn’t manipulated. I’m saying that basically, she completely warped him, and he’s still “in love” with her, despite all that. (But then, I suppose it’s no different than any woman who goes back to an abusive man time after time.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/79 "2005-01-28T18:43:18Z")
But can we agree that there is a difference between the LeTourneau case and the one described in the OP, in which the participants were considerably older? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625/80 "2005-01-28T18:56:19Z")
Mr. 2001, I see your point, but restricting the rights of minors is not discrimination. You are born knowing nothing, and you have to grow up. Everyone must go through childhood, and learn what he needs to know to function as an adult. I belive that restricting the rights of minors differs on a fundamental level from restricting the rights of women. The two concepts are not analagous, as you seem to believe. Surely you would concede that there are NO 1-year-old children who are capable of making adult decisions, would you not? So an absolute line _can_ be drawn somewhere. I agree with you that _how far_ up in age that line is drawn (16, 17, 18?) is somewhat arbitrary, but I don’t see that as analagous to discriminating against an entire gender. If you don’t think so, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’m trying to picture a statutory rape trial under a law as you have proposed (or I suppose it would be called something other than ‘statutory rape’). I guess it would be an extremely lengthy trial where the defense puts on as much evidence as it can trying to prove that the victim is capable of making adult decisions. Sounds horribly complicated and unworkable to me. Besides, it would require adults to make some sort of factual determination as to whether the minor they intend to have sex with is capable of making that decision. What sort of due diligence would be required? Would it only be necessary for the adult to _believe_ that the minor was capable of making adult decisions, or would it have to be fact? I think I’ll just hold off on dating 14 year old girls for the time being - still doesn’t sound like a good idea to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/female-teachers-having-sex-with-teenage-stdents-whats-behind-this/286625.md?page=5)