# FEMA's use of skilled volunteers? Leafleteers and Bush Props. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438 "2005-09-06T23:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/21 "2005-09-08T03:32:45Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > While this may upset and confound the OP who has branded me as a Bush apologist in the past, I agree that this is a misuse of trained personnel. When the FEMA appeal to the volunteer sector was sent, another member of my department and I responded to our Chief that we would be willing to go. In light of this news, we won’t go, as we’re doing more for our community by continuing to work on Fire Prevention week activities. Were we to be deployed for rescue, hazmat, or EMS assignments, that would be another story. Regardless of who you apologize for, I respect your efforts, here or there. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/22 "2005-09-08T03:37:06Z")
Should I change my name to I told you so. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/23 "2005-09-08T03:37:09Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > While this may upset and confound the OP who has branded me as a Bush apologist in the past, I agree that this is a misuse of trained personnel. When the FEMA appeal to the volunteer sector was sent, another member of my department and I responded to our Chief that we would be willing to go. In light of this news, we won’t go, as we’re doing more for our community by continuing to work on Fire Prevention week activities. Were we to be deployed for rescue, hazmat, or EMS assignments, that would be another story. and this may be one of the worst lingering effects - the next crisis, trained personnel may hesitate to respond, ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/24 "2005-09-08T03:48:26Z")
> [@wring](#): > > and this may be one of the worst lingering effects - the next crisis, trained personnel may hesitate to respond, I disagree. The police/fire/hazmat/ems crowd are addicted to disaster. We go where all willing life forms have already fled, and some of us volunteer to do so. So long as we can assist our fellow man, hesitation is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/25 "2005-09-08T04:07:03Z")
If this kind of bullshit had to happen to anyone, I’m glad it happened to our guys from Utah. Maybe some of the knee-jerk republican followers (who are good, obedient boy scouts and actually kind-hearted humanitarians; otherwise they wouldn’t be firefighters) will see first hand what a clusterfuck and PR photo-op this administration is. Maybe, just _maybe_, they’ll see that the Republicans don’t have the interest of working class America at heart. Maybe some will be turned towards progressive ideals. Ah, who am I kidding. Most of those who’s views change will turn towards the radical right wing militia nuts. Maybe those guys are right. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/26 "2005-09-08T04:15:55Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > I disagree. The police/fire/hazmat/ems crowd are addicted to disaster. We go where all willing life forms have already fled, and some of us volunteer to do so. So long as we can assist our fellow man, hesitation is not an option. 'scuse me??? \*\* YOU\*\* just posted that you and your coworker hesitated **now.** ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/27 "2005-09-08T04:32:01Z")
Pardon me, but since you posted this before I could, and this bit of information happened to be the one that pushed me right over the edge, I’d just like to borrow your thread for a moment. May I? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WHAT THE FUCKING GODDAMN SONOFABITCHING CUNTPUNTING HELL IS GOING ON IN THIS MOTHERFUCKING COUNTRY??? THIS IS A FUCKING NIGHTMARE!!! SOMEBODY WAKE ME UP!!! Spare me the carefully chosen words of measured disapproval like “misuse of trained personnel” while people die…we are SO fucking far beyond that at this point…we have crossed over into a surreal world where black is white, up is down, and America is turning into the most vile and reprehensible nation on earth at a headspinning pace. And to my utter horror…none of this is remotely surprising to me. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/28 "2005-09-08T04:42:44Z")
There are all kinds of stories like this. There’s a fire department caravan right now with a million dollars worth of firefighting equipment and crews of fresh firefighters sitting on the side of the road in mississippi because they didn’t have ‘passwords’ and thus, were not allowed to pass. While I agree that scene control is necessary, at this point, anyone in a long black coat that’s not afraid to just BE in New Orleans, ought to be allowed in. This is a gigantic clusterfuck. This Department of Homeland Security bullshit is killing people right this second, all in the name of bureaucracy. I said it when they put all these agencies into one greatbighuge agency. This, is bad, now THIS, is proof. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/29 "2005-09-08T04:49:36Z")
Boy, **Hentor** , you really got me that time! Man, what a coup, definitely straight to the SDMB Archives of Fame. And that link! Genius! I don’t rightly know what a Salt Lake City paper looks like, but I’d be willing to bet it looks _exactly_ like the fake you constructed (by the way, how _did_ you do that?) Only thing gave you away? Well, really, **Hent** it’s too stupid. Sure, we’ve watched these guys roger the rottweiller on more than one occaision, but this! No, it buggers all reason, and so gives it away. But no shit: you _really_ had me goin’ there for a while! Jay voosaloot! ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/30 "2005-09-08T05:00:20Z")
> [@wring](#): > > 'scuse me??? \*\* YOU\*\* just posted that you and your coworker hesitated **now.** Read carefully. He said, “So long as we can assist our fellow man, hesitation is not an option.” Attending a sexual harassment class, handing out pamphlets, and being used by George Bush as photo props isn’t really considered (by me, anyway) “assist[ing] our fellow man”. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/31 "2005-09-08T05:08:51Z")
I suggest you read carefully. **dances** & coworker are opting out now. contrary to posted position about jonesing (no insult) about needing to help those in need. People are in need NOW. they’re opting out NOW. QED, ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/32 "2005-09-08T05:16:13Z")
> [@wring](#): > > I suggest you read carefully. **dances** & coworker are opting out now. contrary to posted position about jonesing (no insult) about needing to help those in need. People are in need NOW. they’re opting out NOW. QED, Because NOW they can’t do anything because of this bizarre beaurucratic bullshit. You said _next_ time emergency professionals might hesitate, which is what **danceswithcats** disagreed with you about. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/33 "2005-09-08T05:19:37Z")
> [@wring](#): > > I suggest you read carefully. **dances** & coworker are opting out now. contrary to posted position about jonesing (no insult) about needing to help those in need. People are in need NOW. they’re opting out NOW. QED, I suggest **you** read carefully. **Silver Fire** understood exactly what I meant, as did **Hentor**. We’ll go if we’re going to be used for some purpose other than handing out flyers. Yes, we’re jonesing to go, but we want to do what we’ve been trained to do. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/34 "2005-09-08T05:23:50Z")
> [@wring](#): > > People are in need NOW. they’re opting out NOW. Umm, okay. So tell me again how spending 8 hours in a sexual harassment class just so they can stand around George Bush doing absolutely nothing except standing around George Bush is helping anybody? **danceswithcats** sez: We like to help people who need help, with no hesitation. Fact: Standing around George Bush doesn’t help any of the people affected by Hurricane Katrina. Handing out FEMA pamphlets to hurricane survivors is marginally helpful at best, and a job easily fullfilled by any number of regular people (me or you, for example). I wouldn’t want to speak for another poster but, were I a trained firefighter, I could think of much better, more helpful things to do with my time (e.g. local Fire Prevention Week activities). Yes, he’s “opted out”, but he also said, “Were we to be deployed for rescue, hazmat, or EMS assignments, that would be another story.” Using firefighters, especially those who are haz-mat and EMS certified, for anything other than firefighting and search and rescue is a waste of invaluable resources. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/35 "2005-09-08T05:33:52Z")
k-rist people. \*\* dances\*\* and coworker are opting out NOW. when people are in need. cause of what went on yesterday. but claims that they won’t opt out in the future 'cause they have this commitment to helping others. yes, what happened was bullshit. and stupid. and the NET FUCKING EFFECT was that at least two trained people OPTED OUT NOW, when people are in need. Is it so outlandish to believe that future response may be tainted? keep in mind that what you’re bitching about is already in the past and is effecting the present. I believe that there is evidence here to project a continuing effect in the future. again. the past has effect the present. I am suggesting that the past may continue to effect the future. usually that’s a given. and in case you’re in doubt - NO. I don’t think these classes, leaflets etc. are a good use of these resources (where in the fuck do you get that I think that?) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/36 "2005-09-08T05:53:02Z")
> [@wring](#): > > k-rist people. > \*\* dances\*\* and coworker are opting out NOW. when people are in need. cause of what went on yesterday. but claims that they won’t opt out in the future 'cause they have this commitment to helping others. > > yes, what happened was bullshit. and stupid. and the NET FUCKING EFFECT was that at least two trained people OPTED OUT NOW, when people are in need. Is it so outlandish to believe that future response may be tainted? keep in mind that what you’re bitching about is already in the past and is effecting the present. I believe that there is evidence here to project a continuing effect in the future. No, it’s not outlandish, and no one is saying that it is. **danceswithcats** just happens to disagree with you, is all. He’s saying that he, personally, will not hesitate to volunteer for the next emergency, despite feeling that volunteering for this emergency would be a waste of his time, at least for the moment. And he feels that most other emergency workers will feel the same way. > [@](#): > > and in case you’re in doubt - NO. I don’t think these classes, leaflets etc. are a good use of these resources (where in the fuck do you get that I think that?) Because, no offence intended, your tone with **danceswithcats** sounds very accusatory and confrontational, and your being kinda wierdly argumentative about this whole thing. It’s just a difference of opinion: you think future emergency response might be compromised because of this, he thinks that it won’t. It’s not like either proposition is provable, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/37 "2005-09-08T06:03:10Z")
??? yesterday caused them to change what they do today, but I’m being odd 'cause I think it might have on tomorrow? suuuuuuuuure. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/38 "2005-09-08T06:13:13Z")
> [@wring](#): > > ??? > > yesterday caused them to change what they do today, but I’m being odd 'cause I think it might have on tomorrow? > > suuuuuuuuure. That’s not what I said. There’s nothing at all odd, unusual, illogical, or irrational about your position. It’s just that not everyone agrees with it, is all. What _is_ odd is that you seem to be determined to get into a fight over it, which seems very out of character for you. No offense intended, but I think you’re letting your anger at the situation in Louisiana color the way you’re responding to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/39 "2005-09-08T06:20:09Z")
_Echo!_ _echo echo echo_ Um…did you guys read all of the OP’s linked cite? Does anyone still have any claims at being able to look at this event in an unbiased fashion? Hell, screw unbiased…anyone left that can even look at the cite critically? > [@](#): > > Federal officials are unapologetic. > “I would go back and ask the firefighter to revisit his commitment to FEMA, to firefighting and to the citizens of this country,” said FEMA spokeswoman Mary Hudak. > > The firefighters - or at least the fire chiefs who assigned them to come to Atlanta - knew what the assignment would be, Hudak said. > “The initial call to action very specifically says we’re looking for two-person fire teams to do community relations,” she said. “So if there is a breakdown [in communication], it was likely in their own departments.” > > One fire chief from Texas agreed that the call was clear to work as community-relations officers. But he wonders why the 1,400 firefighters FEMA attracted to Atlanta aren’t being put to better use. He also questioned why the U.S. Department of Homeland Security - of which FEMA is a part - has not responded better to the disaster. He wonders why the firefighters he sent are being put to jobs requested by FEMA? Well, I’m not sure it takes rocket science here. If I ask you to provide me personnel to scrub toilets and you send me engineers…why would you be surprised that I put your engineers to scrubbing toilets? Because they are too good to scrub toilets? Even though thats what I need…and even though thats what I told you I needed?? Interesting disconnect there. This SEEMS to be saying that FEMA asked for personnel to do public relations which, according to the article: > [@](#): > > While FEMA’s community-relations job may be an important one - displaced hurricane victims need basic services and a variety of resources - it may be a job best suited for someone else, say firefighters assembled at the Sheraton. So, its kind of an important job, and FEMA appearently (according to what I can gleen from this article at least) requested personnel to do it…but the personnel they got are over qualified. And so the firefighters are a bit pissed off. Understandable from their perspective, I agree. Again though, if I ask for toilet scrubbers, perhaps you should send me toilet scrubbers. Crazy I know but… Its like the old saying in the Army…there is the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way, and the Army isn’t going to send you where you are best qualified…but where they NEED you. Ever heard the one about the college graduate who majored in German with training in military intelligence, with secondary skills in communications and Russian? Yeah, they sent him to be a rifle officer in Korea. Why? Well, because the Army needed rifle officers of course. Based on just this article I’d have to say, once again, that folks are jumping out of their skins about nada here. Some firefighters are pissed off because they volunteered to help out…but they aren’t helping out the way they want too. Perhaps they weren’t told exactly what services were requested, or perhaps their fire chiefs thought that once their men got there they would be recognized for search and rescue types and allowed to do that job, despite what job types were requested by FEMA (hope springs eternal I suppose). I feel bad for these guys if they went down there under false assumptions…but I can understand that you can’t send everyone who volunteers to do the jobs they want to do. Someone has to do the shit jobs that need to be done also. Unless I see more on this, specifically that FEMA is lieing here and they actually requested SaR guys but then decided to have them do community-relations instead (this is a distinct possibility…and if so I will gladly take the flames from you guys, and of course retract this entire post), or that there is a chronic shortage of supportable search and rescue types in the area (you do realize that search and rescue types need to be supportable, right…i.e. you can’t just send in everyone who wants to go if you can’t support them all), I’m not seeing what folks are getting this worked up about. (well, ok…I am seeing why folks are getting all worked up about this. Its another golden chance to foam at the mouth and howl at the moon). I mean, this article is a masterpiece of spin and all…but it seems the relavant data is in there for anyone who wants to dig through it. Go ahead…tear me up. Call me a Bush appologist, or a closet Republican or whatever else is the attack of the week on anyone not dancing along to the SDMB’s main theme. I’m sick of seeing these gleeful tidbits breathlessly (and seemingly uncritically) tossed out in this forum. -XT ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/40 "2005-09-08T06:29:22Z")
see- I’m wondering how some one can have what I see as a major disconnect ( " we decided not to help 'cause this time apparently idiots are in charge,but even though there seems to be no evidence that the idiots will be held accountable for their idiocy, in the future I won’t hesitate to respond in the future. further, it’s inconceivable to me that anyone else in my situation would even consider not responding in the future, even though I’m not responding now and there’s no reason to believe that the same nimrods in charge now won’t be in charge in the future, but I’ll respond in the future, cause I care about people, even the ones I"m not helping now 'cause idiots were in charge yesterday.) and challenge me that the past just might have an effect on the future. I see their position as being unrealistic and relying on faith that folks won’t continue to act as they are presently. since the present is the best projector of how folks will act in the future (generally) , I would look to additional support to their position of ‘we will act differently in the future’ other than their insistence that even though they’re acting in a certain way now, they’ll act differently in the future w/o proof that circumstances will be different then. Insanity = doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. maybe I"m being more argumentative than normal but jezus. some one telling me they’ll act differently in the future than they are now, w/o giving any fucking rationale for that difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438.md?page=3)