# FEMA's use of skilled volunteers? Leafleteers and Bush Props. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438 "2005-09-06T23:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/41 "2005-09-08T06:30:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Understandable from their perspective, I agree. Again though, if I ask for toilet scrubbers, perhaps you should send me toilet scrubbers. Crazy I know but… The problem I’m having with this situation is that FEMA was calling for toilet scrubbers when it should have calling for howitzers. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/42 "2005-09-08T06:43:21Z")
**wring** , I feel kinda guilty even asking this, but have you been drinking? You’re not making a lick of sense, here. What’s happening in New Orleans right now is pretty anomalous. That’s what makes it such a big deal: we’ve never bungled a rescue operation this badly before. In every other disaster, man-made or otherwise, emergency relief workers have not hesistated to volunteer. They didn’t hesitate this time, either, but for whatever reason, they weren’t utilized properly. So this one time, **danceswithcats** and some other people he knows aren’t volunteering, because _they already know_ they aren’t going to be able to help. You keep talking about “predicting futre behavior from past events.” Well, seems to me that that is just what **danceswithcats** is doing. Only he’s not limiting “past events” to just what happened in the last two weeks, but what he knows about the sort of people in his line of work, and how they’ve reacted to disaster after disaster, and he says they won’t hesitate to volunteer the next time something goes wrong. Why shouldn’t I believe him? What makes you think he’d lie about something like that? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/43 "2005-09-08T06:47:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The problem I’m having with this situation is that FEMA was calling for toilet scrubbers when it should have calling for howitzers. And if thats true, I’d agree. But I’ve seen no real indications that the current SaR operations are understaffed…not when one considered the current logistics capabilities of supporting large groups in that totally hosed up environment…oh, and providing the needs of people who are on the ragged edge after this disaster too. Thousands of them…tens of thousands. Hundreds. Hell, millions maybe. Maybe as the water levels drop some and as some of the road/sea infrastructure comes back on stream (this is happening already I think), and as they get the folks out who are trapped in the wreckage or who are stubbornly staying for gods know what reasons, they will be able to support larger and larger numbers of rescue personnel in that area. Right now it looks to me like they may be over stretching what they can support as it is…at least I’ve heard reports of some of the rescue types not getting all the food and water THEY need, of helicopters crashing, etc. To me those seem indications that the current operation is stretched. Tossing in a few thousand more personnel, no matter what their training, might be a bad thing. -XT ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/44 "2005-09-08T06:51:12Z")
no, not drinking. not claiming that dances is lieing. (using a cordless keyboard that is cranky = odd syntax). I think that dances believes that this won’t have an effect in the future. I however, see no rationale reason for that belief. I hope they are right. I fear the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/45 "2005-09-08T06:51:28Z")
> [@wring](#): > > some one telling me they’ll act differently in the future than they are now, w/o giving any fucking rationale for that difference? The difference has little to do with the firefighters themselves; the difference is in how FEMA chooses to use them. In the future, if firefighters are required to do the job for which they are trained, of course they’d go. They’d go today if their specialized training was needed which it obviously isn’t because, if it were, why would FEMA have them handing out pamphlets and such? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/46 "2005-09-08T06:57:51Z")
when the firefigthers responded, they had no reason to believe they’d be handing out flyers. certainly, even now, there’s need for folks w/life saving/rescue skills. yet they weren’t being used as such. why on earth does anyone believe that (given no evidence of reason to believe that the management of FEMA will change in the future) why, would anyone believe that future emergencies will suddenly properly respond and properly utilize resources? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/47 "2005-09-08T07:00:54Z")
> [@Silver Fire](#): > > They’d go today if their specialized training was needed which it obviously isn’t because, if it were, why would FEMA have them handing out pamphlets and such? good god. are you really suggesting that the NO area has no need of rescue personneL? people w/firefighting skills? people w/experience w/hazmat? Since there’s still people needing evacuation I see no reason to believe that your position is substantiable. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/48 "2005-09-08T07:06:23Z")
> [@Silver Fire](#): > > They’d go today if their specialized training was needed which it obviously isn’t because, if it were, why would FEMA have them handing out pamphlets and such? Fallacy of circulus in demonstrando: “If FEMA was well managed, then they would put the firefighters where they were most needed. FEMA has said that they put the firefighters where they were most needed. Therefore, FEMA is well managed and has put the firefighters where they were most needed.” With all the FEMA clusterfucks in recent days I’m not sure that we can take their analysis as gospel. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/49 "2005-09-08T07:06:49Z")
> [@wring](#): > > when the firefigthers responded, they had no reason to believe they’d be handing out flyers. certainly, even now, there’s need for folks w/life saving/rescue skills. Again: > [@](#): > > **The firefighters - or at least the fire chiefs who assigned them to come to Atlanta - knew what the assignment would be** , Hudak said. > “ **The initial call to action very specifically says we’re looking for two-person fire teams to do community relations** ,” she said. “**So if there is a breakdown [in communication], it was likely in their own departments**.” > **One fire chief from Texas agreed that the call was clear to work as community-relations officers.** But he wonders why the 1,400 firefighters FEMA attracted to Atlanta aren’t being put to better use. He also questioned why the U.S. Department of Homeland Security - of which FEMA is a part - has not responded better to the disaster. Now, unless you have some evidence that this is false, I’m not sure how you can make that statement. IS it false? Were the firefighters mislead by FEMA? Were they requested under false pretenses? And if the need really IS that great, and assuming the logistics is there to support thousands of more rescue types, exactly why WOULD FEMA not be using them? Spite? Because they are stupid? Maybe because there are other needs…and maybe because they already have all the SaR types they need that they can currently support? -XT ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/50 "2005-09-08T07:20:58Z")
why would **anyone** request highly specialized, trained individuals to hand out flyers? some one with less than an high school diploma, a Hollywood actor would be qualified to perform such a task. IF FEMA made a specific request to fire departments, to lessen **their** capability to answer local calls for their highly specialized training in order to drop off pieces of paper a thousand miles away, then that’s an even more dramatic example of the cluster fuck assholishness fucked up response of FEMA in the first place. care to support why one would want scads of emergency response folks to (essentially) dispense paper? instead of say, any of the thousands of homeless helpless folk already there? (for example) or the various media whores already there ? why do you need some one w/ emergency rescue skills to stand behind Bush? to drop off flyers? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/51 "2005-09-08T07:27:14Z")
and again, there are people **right now** needing rescue services. but apparently, according to FEMA , it’s better for some one qualified to perform that service to hand out flyers leaving the rescue operations to Sean Penn. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/52 "2005-09-08T07:28:08Z")
> [@wring](#): > > good god. are you really suggesting that the NO area has no need of rescue personneL? people w/firefighting skills? people w/experience w/hazmat? No. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > With all the FEMA clusterfucks in recent days I’m not sure that we can take their analysis as gospel. Agreed. As for the that piece you quoted, I know. I should have italicized “obviously” and used a few :rolleyes: to get my point across. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/53 "2005-09-08T07:28:20Z")
Oh come now **Wring!** What if, while being handed out, those leaflets suddenly burst into flames? What if when someone got a leaflet they were so happy that a case of spontaneous human combustion occured? What then? If there were no firefighters on hand, wouldn’t the Liberal Media [sup]tm[/sup] have jumped all over them for not providing firefighters to combat possible spontaneous human combustion? Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Just like you mindless Bush Bashers, never happy with anything that the man’s cronies do! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/54 "2005-09-08T07:30:06Z")
> [@Silver Fire](#): > > Agreed. As for the that piece you quoted, I know. I should have italicized “obviously” and used a few :rolleyes: to get my point across. Damn the limits of text based conversation. Daaaaaaaaaamn them! (Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/55 "2005-09-08T07:31:37Z")
Point. Maybe they could get a Baldwin brother to help - I believe one of them played a firefighter once. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/56 "2005-09-08T07:58:37Z")
> [@wring](#): > > why would **anyone** request highly specialized, trained individuals to hand out flyers? > some one with less than an high school diploma, a Hollywood actor would be qualified to perform such a task. IF FEMA made a specific request to fire departments, to lessen **their** capability to answer local calls for their highly specialized training in order to drop off pieces of paper a thousand miles away, then that’s an even more dramatic example of the cluster fuck assholishness fucked up response of FEMA in the first place. care to support why one would want scads of emergency response folks to (essentially) dispense paper? instead of say, any of the thousands of homeless helpless folk already there? (for example) or the various media whores already there ? why do you need some one w/ emergency rescue skills to stand behind Bush? to drop off flyers? You beat me to the question. As to who is qualified to hand out flyers, I would suggest the two three echelons of FEMA management would do nicely. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/57 "2005-09-08T07:59:40Z")
Damn it all, that should be the top two or three echelons of FEMA management. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/58 "2005-09-08T10:38:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Now, unless you have some evidence that this is false, I’m not sure how you can make that statement. IS it false? Were the firefighters mislead by FEMA? Were they requested under false pretenses? [Link repost](http://www.nbc5.com/news/4946511/detail.html?z=dp&dpswid=2265994&dppid=65194) > [@](#): > > In a document that went out from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the agency asked for firefighters with very specific skills and who were capable of working in austere conditions. When they got to a center in Atlanta, they found out their jobs would be public relations. > > […] > > “There was almost a fight,” said Portage Assistant Fire Chief Joe Calhoun. “There was probably 700 firefighters sitting in the room getting this training and it dawned on them what we were going to be doing, and then it got bad from there.” > > […] > > Their boss, Portage Fire Chief Tim Sosby, said he was only too happy to loan out his two men, but things [sic] they were right to come back home. > > “It seemed like an incredible misuse of valuable resources,” he said. You’ve got an assistant fire chief who wanted to go there to fight fires and save people saying that it seemed like lots of other firefighters had assumed the same thing, and their chief saying that he was fine with sending them down there to do a firefighter’s job but that flyer distribution was a misuse of their skills. If anything, it sounds like a lot of people sure as hell weren’t told that the job was PR, or at least solely PR. As I posted above, Illinois sent a convoy of several hundred firefighters, with advanced trucks and gear, down to the affected areas. Why, exactly, would they and many other fire departments from around the US send their best emergency situation personnel with full gear and firefighting vehicles if they knew those folks were going to be distributing flyers? It sounds to me like FEMA underemphasized the part that PR would be playing in their role, and until we see what the FEMA memo looked like, we can’t be totally sure **what** happened. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/59 "2005-09-08T11:48:09Z")
Jesus Christ **xtisme**. It’s like _50 First Dates_ interacting with you. You enter each and every circumstance with the credulity of a fucking three year old. “But, but Mary Hudak, the public relations person from FEMA swears that they were told exactly what they would be doing. Our administration would never lie about something like this!” Never mind that it makes no sense that so many trained emergency service people would be happy to spend their time handing out leaflets. Never mind that their home agencies would not want to give up their own resources for an effort that could be handled by any layperson. Which makes more sense to you: 30 different leaders of 30 different emergency services departments across the country misinterpreted the request from FEMA, or Mary Hudak is doing some damage control that you are once again perfectly willing to give every bit of credibility to? Jesus. Even before you posted this apologetic shit, Ferret Herder had already posted an article making it clear that at least one chief did not expect his resources to be used as they were. > [@](#): > > Their boss, Portage Fire Chief Tim Sosby, said he was only too happy to loan out his two men, but things they were right to come back home. > > “It seemed like an incredible misuse of valuable resources,” he said. > > The two didn’t come home right away, Rogers reported. They waited 24 hours, hoping their real skills might be used. Not only did their assignment never change, they were never told to go anywhere. > > “We couldn’t see ourselves sitting in the hotel while there were people asking for help,” Lundy said. Frankly, I give up on you. For whatever reasons, you are congenitally unable to think rationally about the Bush administration. Unlike Adam Sandler, I don’t feel compelled to make a video tape of you to remind you of your past ability to come to see the light. You do give me insight, though, into why Rove’s bullshit strategies work so well: Regardless of the past, every single new thing these people tell you is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/60 "2005-09-08T14:05:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Again: > > Now, unless you have some evidence that this is false, I’m not sure how you can make that statement. IS it false? Were the firefighters mislead by FEMA? Were they requested under false pretenses? > > -XT Oh come on. You take a one-line response and turn it into a big ol’ bundle of thought? Reread it again and keep in mind “a few bad apples”. In this case it’s the FEMA rep saying, “Gosh golly gee. _I_ told those silly-willy firefighters (or their chiefs, you cant’ expect me to remember EVERYTHING) what they’d be coming here to do. If their chiefs didn’t tell them, then I guess _THEY_ screwed up, because obviously _WE_ didn’t do it.” Because we all know that firefighters are generally thrilled to zip across the country so they can sit and listen to lectures on Sexual Harassment all day. I’m sure that fits the personality of your average first-responder. I’m sorry, but I have to join the large-text brigade here. Does ANYONE in this government take responsiblity for their own fucking actions anymore? This is a little example of what’s going on right now. We can call it “trickle-down morality”. If they guy up top ain’t responsible for anything, why should the guys down below be? -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438.md?page=4)