# FEMA's use of skilled volunteers? Leafleteers and Bush Props. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438 "2005-09-06T23:33:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/81 "2005-09-08T19:31:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, but in my scenerio the EXCESS engineers were put to scrubbing decks and chipping paint. There are no excess engineers in the real-life parallel. If you read **FinnAgain** ’s cite, you’ll see that the firefighters currently actively working to _fight fires_ in New Orleans are woefully understaffed, on the brink of exhaustion, and some are committing suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/82 "2005-09-08T19:38:19Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > One of the sheriffs there had to post armed deputies as “telephone pole guards” to keep FMEA from cutting phone lines. Can someone give me a **GOOD** reason for FEMA wanting to cut the phone lines? I can think of some bad ones and some VERY bad ones…but how about good ones? How about not-extremely-bad ones? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Obsidian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/51bf81/32.png) [@Obsidian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obsidian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/83 "2005-09-08T20:05:17Z")
On reading the memo, I think my original assesment was right, with the caveat that it probably wasn’t deceptive. They’re just that stupid and disorganized to not realize how badly it could be misinterpreted, and then their horrible handling of the training (Sexual Harrasment? EOE training? WFT?) I bet if they’d worded that request to say something like, “Look, we know you want to be dropped into NOLA to fight the blazes, but there are lots of people in other disaster areas that aren’t being featured on TV. We need you to go to these little isolated towns, check the structure, gas lines, etc, reassure them, provide first aid. Regular volunteers aren’t capable of doing these things because of how bad area is. We don’t know how bad it is in these places, and we need people with the skills & training to handle whatever they might find-- including fire and serious injury. Yeah, you won’t get on CNN, but to a bunch of people in Podunk, MS with 8 miles of downed trees between them an civilization, you’ll be a hero.” I bet they would have still gotten plenty of volunteers, and would not have accidentally created even MORE bad press for themselves. I honestly wish I could belive our current goverment was evil and deceptive. That would make me feel better than the truth. They’re just grossly disorganized and depressingly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/84 "2005-09-08T20:47:55Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Can someone give me a **GOOD** reason for FEMA wanting to cut the phone lines? > > I can think of some bad ones and some VERY bad ones…but how about good ones? How about not-extremely-bad ones? > > -Joe See, phone lines are supported on _wooden_ telephone poles. And you know that saying we have around here, “Get off the cross, we need the wood.”? Maybe the folks at FEMA are anticipating a need to get up on crosses, so as to deflect criticism in the days ahead. Other than that, I got nothin’. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/85 "2005-09-08T21:08:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, I suppose I could see the logic in wanting trained personnel, even for such mundain tasks. Myself, I would have brought in the military to do this kind of thing in preference to fire and rescue…but I understand there are some problems with deploying regular military in this kind of situation. I certainly could’ve got behind that. The National Guard could’ve helped secure neighberhoods at the same time as giving out leaflets. Besides, with FEMA cutting freaking power lines (and phone lines?) how could people even make calls if they got a leaflet? I’ve also heard, (no cite at present) that virtually all communications out of NOLA have been having problems, even down to satalite phones. > [@xtisme](#): > > I can also see the other side of this though, and can certainly see why folks think its a clusterfuck and a waste of trained personnel. Again, if we could actually see what was requested (I appreciate you looking and am sorry that I haven’t had time to really dig on this myself) by FEMA, then we’d be able to clearly deliniate whether this was a fuckup…and who fucked up if so. I grant you that FEMA is a prime candidate btw…I’ve only tried to argue that they don’t necessarily HAVE to be THE ONLY candidate, or that this situation is even as fucked up as people are making it out to be. Well, now that we have the exact memo thanks to friend **Mudd** , doesn’t it seem stupid? Asking for, specifically, fire fighters to serve as leafleteers? > [@xtisme](#): > > This is easier to understand IMHO. Say that you have the command and coordination capability along with the logistical capabilities to support, oh 5000 rescue workers in the disaster area (note, this figure is pulled out of the air and bears no relationship to reality). Say then that you get 8000 rescue workers in total. Now…what do you do with the excess 3000? Further, say you have the need in other areas for 2500 warm bodies to do other support type stuff. Seems logical to me that you would simply grab the volunteers and re-direct them to other jobs that need doing. Maybe, except, with a month worth of provisions, they didn’t need support. Hell, they could’ve been told “Head off on your own, help wherever you can.” I mean, if you have excess firefighters, and you need more firefighters, why send them to hand out leaflets? > [@xtisme](#): > > Again…is this whats actually happening? I have no idea. But I can certainly see logical reasons for doing the things that were done. Whether or not thats actually why? Fucked if I know. No… but NOLA does need help, as per the cite I provided. Specifically, their firefighters are under strength, exhausted, and in general just running on empty. There is a clear and present need for augmenting their ranks. There is not a clear and present need to give people pieces of paper with FEMA’s number… as if people with working phones couldn’t dial 411 on their own. > [@xtisme](#): > > Sure…I already conceeded that it could certainly be a clusterfuck. I’m not sure at this point is all. Fair enough. Have the cites that we’ve now dug up helped convince you? > [@xtisme](#): > > No worries…and certainly no need to apologize at all. I have been called it before and probably will again. Neat-O… you damn apologist! 😉 > [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, but in my scenerio the EXCESS engineers were put to scrubbing decks and chipping paint. Ms **Lord** touched on this already. If we’re going to keep to my analogy… the ship is sinking, there aren’t enough engineers asigned to fixing it, and you’ve got extra engineers on deck chipping away at the paint. > [@xtisme](#): > > …to use the excess folks in these kinds of tasks, and pull them off as the guys doing SaR are attrited (and they will be…they will get sick, hurt, or just shell shocked, and they will have to be replaced). Well, I think that perhaps far more likely is that FEMA is so clueless that they don’t even know about the firefighter shortage. This is the organization, after all, that learned about the convention center/football stadium from freakin’ TV. I mean, it’s like when Iraq developed highly sophisticated GPS systems to track all their scuds, and the name of that system was CNN. > [@xtisme](#): > > Certainly not. What I acknowledge is that at some point you reach a level where you are either not able to support the rescue efforts safely, or diminishing returns. If not, why not send 100,000 rescue workers in? How about a million? There has to be a point where throwing more warm bodies, even highly trained warm bodies, doesn’t buy you any more…and starts to cost you. Well… maybe you and I are just at an impass. I fail to see how self sufficient autonomous groups would need any support. That’s the point of being self sufficient, right? > [@xtisme](#): > > Probably not, though its nice to have replacements on hand…or just have folks who can deal with a situation that might arrise in a professional fashion (to speculate: While handing out leaflets to an elderly resident, said resident has a heart attack or collapses from heat stroke…I’d rather have a fire fighter/EMT there than, well, say me). Ehhhhhhh. :dubious: That sounds too close for comfort to my spontaneous human combustion joke. If NOLA needs firefighters, as they do, which need is more pressing? The clear and present need for firefighters, or the potential of heat stroke/heart attacks among those getting leaflets? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/86 "2005-09-08T21:10:16Z")
Whoops, looks like they were cutting phone lines, not power lines. How’s the for megastupid? “Here’s our number, call us if you need anything. Well, if you need anything and we haven’t cut your phone lines yet.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/87 "2005-09-08T21:24:21Z")
> [@Obsidian](#): > > I bet if they’d worded that request to say (etc) And that would be a GOOD use of the resource. Providing leaflets to those who need them would be secondary, though somewhat important, to the use of a firefighter’s skill at assessing the situations in all those little hamlets. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/88 "2005-09-08T21:35:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Here’s our number, call us if you need anything. Well, if you need anything and we haven’t cut your phone lines yet.” 800 numbers are expensive. I suppose it’s one way to cut costs. Hell, enough cost-cutting and we can lower taxes again! Wheeeeeeeeee! I’m gonna buy me a boat! So, anyone have any good reasons for cutting phone lines yet? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/89 "2005-09-08T21:37:58Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > […Unintelligible ravings…] Oh please. **xtisme** is contributing a heck of a lot more to this thread than _you_ are. For the record, IMHO, **xtisme** did a good thing by bringing facts into this mindless partisan foamfest. That fact that some of you can’t even handle rational debate on such subjects says more about you than it does about **xtisme**. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/90 "2005-09-08T21:39:49Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Maybe the folks at FEMA are anticipating a need to get up on crosses, so as to deflect criticism in the days ahead. I’ll buy the nails and even swing the hammer if ya let me (evil evil grin). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/91 "2005-09-08T21:43:35Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Oh please. **xtisme** is contributing a heck of a lot more to this thread than _you_ are. > > For the record, IMHO, **xtisme** did a good thing by bringing facts into this mindless partisan foamfest. That fact that some of you can’t even handle rational debate on such subjects says more about you than it does about **xtisme**. And you’re contributing what here, spanky? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/92 "2005-09-08T21:46:08Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And you’re contributing what here, spanky? > > -Joe The concept that anyone that agrees with him is a master of writing and rhetoric, and that anyone who disagrees with him is a stupid knee-jerk Bush hater. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/93 "2005-09-08T21:50:09Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > So, anyone have any good reasons for cutting phone lines yet? [faux news] Several people have suggested that phone lines can, and have, been used by Al Queda in the past. Many people also point out that if you use these phone lines, you’re a coward and a traitorous son of a dog. We, of course, refrain from judgement.[/faux news] ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/94 "2005-09-08T22:35:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [faux news] Several people have suggested that phone lines can, and have, been used by Al Queda in the past. Many people also point out that if you use these phone lines, you’re a coward and a traitorous son of a dog. We, of course, refrain from judgement.[/faux news] Maybe **Psycho Pirate** or **xtisme** (and I apologize to XT for putting him on the same line as that jackass) but it’s been three hours, and I’d love to hear about the reason for cutting down phone lines. Anyone? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/95 "2005-09-08T23:43:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Maybe Psycho Pirate or xtisme (and I apologize to XT for putting him on the same line as that jackass) but it’s been three hours, and I’d love to hear about the reason for cutting down phone lines. Haven’t got a clue, nor a plausable speculation on that one…sorry Merijeek. If I were to go into total WAG mode: Safety? As far as I know telephone lines don’t carry a lot of current (they do carry some of course). Perhaps they are afraid they might fall down on someone with all the water undermining the poles? Maybe its to prevent low voltage from damaging the telephone switching equipment (i.e. if water is seeping into the lines…implausable I know)? Maybe they are a helicopter hazzard (helicopters and telephone lines don’t mix, I know that much)? Maybe its a plot by our alien overlords? Someone has a wood fetish at FEMA? Beats me. I did a quick search (still at work) and only came up with what you cited saying they were doing it…not why. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/96 "2005-09-08T23:58:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As far as I know telephone lines don’t carry a lot of current (they do carry some of course… They do carry enough to make a tiny spark. Maybe there were gas leaks in the area? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/97 "2005-09-09T00:11:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I certainly could’ve got behind that. The National Guard could’ve helped secure neighberhoods at the same time as giving out leaflets. Besides, with FEMA cutting freaking power lines (and phone lines?) how could people even make calls if they got a leaflet? I’ve also heard, (no cite at present) that virtually all communications out of NOLA have been having problems, even down to satalite phones. I was actually thinking of the regular Army for this, but the National Guard would work as well for doing this kind of thing. As for the all communications thing…I’m not sure how satelite phone service could or would be disrupted…after all, the satelites are in space. As long as you have a clear shot to one, you are good to go (_Ground Hogs Day Flashback_ 'Is it snowing in space?!? :)). I’m pretty sure cell phone service would be disrupted if the power is down, though a lot of the cells use auxillary battery backup so in theory it should be restorable, at least in a limited way…once the myriad other things that have a higher priority are done of course. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, now that we have the exact memo thanks to friend Mudd, doesn’t it seem stupid? Asking for, specifically, fire fighters to serve as leafleteers? I’m glad they got that cite…it certainly clears a bunch of things up. I was obviously wrong about FEMA asking for a variety of people. I’ll stand by (for now)my earlier answer that there are plausable reasons to want trained personnel for this grunt work though…though again, were it me I’d have brought in the military for those kinds of tasks. Course, were it me I’d have hundreds of undersexed and slightly plump love muffins feeding me pealed grapes while fanning me with those big frond things, while sitting on a beach somewhere, so… > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Maybe, except, with a month worth of provisions, they didn’t need support. Hell, they could’ve been told “Head off on your own, help wherever you can.” I mean, if you have excess firefighters, and you need more firefighters, why send them to hand out leaflets? Well, I think that the job of supporting that many people in the field in those conditions, especially those teams actively going into the city for SaR missions, is more difficult and involved than you think. As for the second part, if you have an excess of firefighters, but you don’t have enough spear carriers, and you need spear carriers, then that would be why. Also, I suppose that if some of your firefighters have to bow out due to injury or stress, you have a ready pool of trained personnel on the spot to shift in. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fair enough. Have the cites that we’ve now dug up helped convince you? They have certainly helped to clarify some of the points raised in this thread, no doubt…and I for one appreciate those that dug em up so that we could work from some facts instead of pure speculation. For the wider question, do I think the whole thing is a Government (Fed, city, state, regional, etc) cluster fuck…or do I think the situation itself is just fucked up? I’m still undecided and still forming my opinion on all this. I’m trying to be as unbiased as I can, and trying to read between the lines of the various finger pointing going on. Right now my inclination is that the situation was beyond fucked up…and that the government, at all levels, probably did drop the ball…but that this situation was so over the top and had so many critical problems that I’m not willing to blame anyone…yet. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well… maybe you and I are just at an impass. I fail to see how self sufficient autonomous groups would need any support. That’s the point of being self sufficient, right? No one is ‘self sufficient’…not in that kind of situation anyway. Even special forces troops out in enemy territory need support. In a disaster area like NO is, there are myriad items that are essential…the most basic would be medical supplies and access to medical facilities. Every scrape or cut in NO could be potentially deadly. Typhoid…Cholora. These are real possibilities. Gods know what else could be breeding in there. Food and water would be essential. Replacement equipment and supplies used (to patch up or hydrate stranded civilians…that stuff has to be replaced). Its not just a matter of pointing grandly at the city and turning loose the rescue guys to sink or swim. Its about command and control, and coordinating the efforts of thousands so that you can be systematic. All these things (and more) take resources. Anyway, its cool if we are at an impass on this…especially since while I can see that this COULD be the case, I’m not sure if it IS the case. If you take my meaning. I’m in ‘wait and see’ mode on a lot of this stuff, and just speculating and even taking WAGS on a lot of this. -XT ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/98 "2005-09-09T00:13:16Z")
I doubt that is the reason. During our Northridge earthquake out here, we didn’t have Feds running around cutting any phone (or power) lines, and we did have gas leaks. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/99 "2005-09-09T00:13:30Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > They do carry enough to make a tiny spark. Maybe there were gas leaks in the area? I had heard there were gas leaks all over the city, but last I read (IIRC) they finally shut down the mains. Of course, there were still be gas in the infrastructure and perhaps even in small pockets throughout the city. -XT ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438/100 "2005-09-09T00:21:10Z")
Let’s get some clarification on the term “gas leaks,” please. Natural gas, or gasoline? I heard on the radio this morning that the standing waters are contaminated with, among other thinigs, liquid gasoline. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femas-use-of-skilled-volunteers-leafleteers-and-bush-props/320438.md?page=6)