This may seem to be stating the obvious, but what the fuck are people going to do with FEMA’s phone number anyway? Cell phones are not working, and the land lines are down.
This is just so stupid. I can’t even work up any ire anymore. I just shake my head in disbelief.
The firefighters were told to bring their own rations and supplies and to expect to live in austere conditions for 30 days. They arrived in Atlanta fully-supplied and prepared to fend for themselves.
So concerns about care and feeding of the firefighters themselves is not a valid reason for not sending them into the breach.
Hell, at the very least you could put them to work clearing downed trees to make sure all the roads are passable.
As always, the pile on for anyone swimming against the stream on this board is…unsurprising. The seemingly reflexive (and mindless) cry of ‘Bush appologist!’ for trying to look critically at the scant data thus far provided is also fairly unsurprising. I suppose to get along on this message board one much click ones heels and bow to the meme. One can’t even speculate that maybe, just maybe, insufficient data exists to warrent the foam and howls, and that maybe there are alternative explainations.
Oh well, for all of you who are attempting to lable me as a Bush appologist for looking at the OP critically and going against the meme, you can kiss my furry brown butt. 
I’ll see if I can reply to some of the more rational of you in this thread.
Yes, I had read your cite earlier. Unfortunately, like the OPs cite, it lacks a lot of the critical details I was looking for. It doesn’t really say in there what FEMA requested specifically, at least I don’t see it in there. It talks about Portage Fire Chief Tim Sosby, and that he was happy to loan out the guys, but doesn’t really go into the details of what FEMA was requesting. In fact, I’m kind of unsure really how this process worked anyway. Did FEMA directly request qualified folks from the various fire departments, or did they simply send out blanket requests for various personnel types? If the latter then I could definitely see how this could have happened, as once one role type was filled they then sought to fill the others they needed. If all the fire departments got a list that included SaR folks, as well as perhaps administrators and even spear carrier types to wear shirts and pass out fliers, and if they all mostly responded by sending SaR types…well, I can see how that would be a problem.
Why would fire departments send their best? Well, my brother in law is a fire fighter here, and my city sent a bunch of firefighters, police, doctors and truck loads of supplies (gathered by a local radio station)…all unasked for. My brother in law didn’t go (he has a new baby) but I know for a fact that they all they sent were paramedic and rescue types…because those are the folks who volunteered. It seems plausable to me that IF FEMA sent out blanket requests, and not specific requests to individual fire departments (and I have no idea if this is true or not…I asked my brother in law last night but he is simply an EMT…not even a sergeant), that fire departments would send the most ‘glamorous’ types…for one, those are the folks raring to go, for the other its just how fire houses and fire fighters think.
Its distinctly possible…or that they are spinning things after the fact so that it looks that way. I acknowledged this in my first post (though that seems to have gone over the more rabid posters heads). It would be instructive if we could nail down exactly what was requested by FEMA…and how. I’d be interested in knowing if it was a blanket request or specific fire departments were individually tapped with requests for personnel for one thing.
I’m far from locked in to my speculations on this event. I’m just critical of the data thus far provided and the one interperatation that seems to have instantly and uncritically taken hold in this thread. Instead of ranting and raving it seems to me a better use for all that energy would be to dig a bit deeper than the OPs or your cite and try and find out some more details…and to try and look at those with an open mind, not automatic assumptions that FEMA HAS to be in the wrong.
I’ll try and read through some of the other posts after my posts last night if I have time later today. If I missed anyone else rationally and critically looking at what little we currently have (or if I missed someone who has provided the data I asked about) I appologize…hopefully I’ll get back, cut through the renewed flames directed at me from THIS post, and sift through the foam and dross for the rational.
-XT
So that little bit of digging is your solution. If such information is out there how come you didn’t come up with it instead of taking time to type all that?
Certainly a quote from a couple firefighters or their chief could easily dispell all of this.
Just think. A single, you know, fact could straighten it all out.
Or you can endlessly speculate in one direction out of habit because all these lefty wingnuts insist on going in the other direction.
If you’re going to tilt at windmills just for the hell of it, maybe you shouldn’t bitch that the windmills are still there?
-Joe
Do y’all get discounts on crosses?
Erunh?!?
It’s binary… either FEMA fucked up by asking trained firefighters to hand out leaflets while they could’ve been better used doing just about anything, or FEMA fucked up by asking trained firefighters to do some good and then had them hand out leaflets.
What possible reason would there be to request some of the most qualified first responders in the nation hand out leaflets? Is that not something you or I could not do blindfolded? Doesn’t that speak to fantastic mismanagement?
It’s an inability to see, or if you see it to admit that you do, issues like that which raise cries of “apologist!” And frankly, I can’t see how they’re undeserved.
Oh please. I’d wager most five year olds would understand that you don’t send highly trained professionals to do a job any idiot could do, especially when there are still places that need those highly trained professionals.
Let’s assume that FEMA was in fact requesting that trained S&R folks be sent to hand out leaflets. Let’s assume that’s the only thing that their request had, in giant 40 point type. Isn’t that still monumentaly stupid? Why do you need to take a firefighter away from his job, and away from any other areas in and around any area hit by Katrina, in order to do a job that requires zero training? Honestly… does that make sense to you?
Seriously, a letter is sent out in fourty point type saying “We need firefighters to hand out leaflets, come on down!” Isn’t that still fucking moronic of FEMA?
Again, it’s binary. Either they’re wasting the talents of firefighters on purpose, or by accident. Either way it’s a pretty big fuckup.
And if firefighters really were bringing their own rations for up to a month’s stay, then FEMA doesn’t even have an excuse that they would’ve had to support the firefighters too.
Because I asked a question, I didn’t assert an answer? Because I couldn’t find the data myself and hoped someone else with more time, energy or skill COULD find it? Because I’m actually curious and would be happy to see an answer…even if it proves me wrong?
Why did YOU take the time of typing this in and not providing that data btw?
Hey, good point. You got any?
Thats true. At least I am up front that my musings ARE speculation, and pretty much out of my ass. But I agree with you…and in fact I was really asking for some facts instead of more back and forth speculation. For myself, I haven’t been able to find even the FEMA request in detail, though admittedly I’m at work atm and can’t really do more than a quick search here and there.
But I really do like playing devils advocate sometimes. It makes life more interesting, and I really have no big emotional stake in this. If FEMA fucked up on this too I’ll be happy to come back and say my musings were bullshit and my speculations worthless. Besides, sometimes its fun to go against the grain in threads like this and point out inconsistancies in the meme. If I’m right, this thread will die (rapidly) and only I’ll have the satisfaction of knowing I’m right (I doubt anyone will come back and pat me on the back for pointing out what I have)…if I’m wrong I’ll manfully take the beating and retract what I’ve said.
-XT
Regardless of whether or not the firefighters or their departments knew what they would be doing before they went, this is a gross miss-appropriation of resources. Why use poeple who are skilled in search and rescue, first aid, fire fighting, haz mat certified, etc… to fucking hald out fliers? Who the fuck thought up that great idea? Look, you want peopel to hand out fliers with a phone number, fine, hand out fliers, but don’t WASTE (and yes, it is a waste) emergency personel to do it. Their home town/city is suffering from their loss. Their skills COULD be put to good use somewhere, but certainly not there, if that’s all they will be doing.
I really want to know why they asked for emergecny personel for this job. All I can think is that somewhere, someone fucked up. They put out a call for volunteers, and when it came time to assign them jobs, my guess is some penicl-pushing desk jokey had no idea the type of volunteers he was getting, and said, “Well, they can hand out flyers.” A SERIOUS mis-fucking-communication. Maybe if everyone involved in the set up of this knew who was volunteering, they could have had, you know…actual jobs for them to do. Of course, this is just my speculation, I ahve no idea what actually happened. But, honestly, this looks better for FEMA. I mean, admit that one person made a mistake, or that an entire government agency purposefully decided to waaste hundreds of skilled volunteers.
Oh, and don’t get me started on eight hours of sexual harrasement of equal opportunity training. Thanks a lot, lawyeres. yes, I’m sure all those people rescued have nothing better on their minds than to sue the firefighters who saved their lives because when pulling them out of a burning building, they touched their butt. :rolleyes: But wait, they aren’t even doing that! They are handoung out fliers! Christ! What does that have to do wiuth sexual harrasement? Are they stuffing them in people’s asses?
Donno nuffing 'bout that. Some friendly citizen(s) once burned on in my daddies front yard though when we lived in the South…and they said ‘ya’ll’ a lot. Does that count?
How do you know its binary? Do you have a cite for what FEMA actually requested? If so, trot that sombitch out and I’ll shut the hell up Finn. If not, I can see a third possibility that appearently never occured to you (though I’ve tried to point it out)…namely that FEMA sent out a blanket request for different types of folks, including SaR as well as other personnel. The fire departments, being filled with fire fighters with lots of testosterone, responded by sending out lots and lots of SaR types. So, they didn’t request trained firefighters TO hand out leaflets…they just got more trained firefighters than they needed, and not enough of the other type people they needed.
Certainly this can all be cleared up by just finding out exactly what and how personnel were requested by FEMA. I haven’t found that yet. Have you?
Only if you assume you have all the facts. See above alternative interperatation. Am I right and you are wrong? Gods know…I don’t. I bet you don’t KNOW either though Finn…you are merely speculating same as me at this point.
Wouldn’t that make me a FEMA apologist then? I’m not sure how Bush figures into all this, except obliquely (i.e. because he appointed the knuckleheads at FEMA when he became president). Reguardless, I don’t see how asking questions or speculating on alternative interperatations of the limited data makes me an apologist, but hey, whatever floats your boat Finn.
Did you see my Army anacedote earlier? Or to put it another way, if I need deck apes but you send me engineers…well, then your engineers may end up scrubbing decks and chipping paint. I think its plausable that FEMA asked for different personnel types and got flooded with SaR guys from the various fire departments…but didn’t get enough other type personnel that they felt they needed. Its plausable…whether its true or not I don’t know.
Why would we make these assumptions in the first place? Why would FEMA only request SaR types Finn, when they have myriad needs in this emergency? Does this make sense to YOU? Why assume at all when a few facts will end this debate?
:rolleyes: Or, in the real world, FEMA requests SaR and fire fighter personnel, administrators, drivers, administration and support staff, laborers, blah blah blah…please send who you can. So, FEMA requests various personnel TYPES, but the fire houses send almost exclusively SaR guys. Why is this scenerio implausable Finn…especially since we don’t know all the facts yet? Why does it HAVE to be FEMA being stupid and requesting fire fighters ‘to hand out leaflets’?
I disagree it has to be binary…or that its a big fuckup (yet). It COULD be a big fuckup…or it could be a logistics snafu where FEMA got more fire fighters than they needed, and not enough other personnel that they needed…and so the engineers are now deck scrubbers and paint chippers, because thats whats NEEDED. I guess having been used by the military myself a time or two on such things where I did what they needed, and not what I was necessarily best at (or what I wanted to do), I can’t wrap my head around the outrage here. Those guys are warm bodies…and there are myriad needs in that area during this disaster. That means that sometimes folks who can do one thing really well are put to less glamorous tasks that are still necessary.
-XT
You know, I can almost see how this happened. FEMA puts out a memo asking for volunteers. “Volunteers must be able feed and supply themselves for 30 days, and live in austere conditions.”
You ask that, you ain’t gettin’ secretaries. I could hand out leaflets, but I can’t feed & supply myself in a disaster area for a month. I don’t own, and cannot get, that kind of equipment. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a “deliberate accident” where they didn’t SPECIFICLY request first-responders, but anyone without a bucket on their head would know exactly what they’d get with those parameters. . . now they get to play dumb.
It’d be brilliant if it wasn’t so perverted. Regular volunteers would need more supervision and assistance (physical and psychological) working in the really ravaged areas. What I don’t get is. . .did they think the fireman wouldn’t notice? Or are their heads so far up their asses that this actually seemed like a smart plan?
Bolding mine
And why would they request these peple from fire departments rather then the general population? Lot’s of people are ready to help.
On preview, Obsidian could be right, but why would you expect to get qualified secretaies or other admin types of of the firefighter pool?
Yes at first glance this may appear to be improper use of resources but consider the following:
So I’m sitting on my porch in the most ravaged section of town wondering WTF am I going to do when along comes a community relations guy with a flyer, kind and comforting words, and from a profession we have all admired since childhood.
Now, given search and rescue is up and running and this individual is not “needed” elsewhere at the moment to save lives, would you rather see some fucking slack jawed suit with manicured nails or a rugged individual who is very capable when the shit hits the fan. Someone with knowledge of injury and treatment there of, someone who’s been to hell and back in his own occupation, someone who is calm under the worst conditions and knows how to get shit done, someone who is actually able to aid if I need it!!
I dunno, but it seems to me that under the circumstances I would feel much more comforted by sight of, words and actions of a firefighter than a government goon.
This is a false dichotomy. I would have anticipated that kind hearted volunteer laypeople would be able to accomplish the job. I would hope that I would be able to keep in mind, that although I had been through a traumatic natural disaster, I was at the moment, safe. I would remember that there are people out there who need the services of a veteran firefighter, and I would be embarrassed for wishing that such a resource were wasted on me as they hand me a piece of paper in a big governmental instutitional ass-covering operation.
I generally agree with what you are getting at, but it doesn’t have to be a conspiricy to screw over the fire fighters. It could simply be that they got more SaR’s than they needed…and less of other types. Since they had a pool of warm bodies, and they had less savory or glorified tasks that needed to be performed, they simply put the excess personnel to doing those tasks. Again, I could be completely wrong here…but at this point I don’t think its such a stretch to at least consider this angle.
As to the other…my thinking is they felt that since people volunteered they would be willing to, you know, do whatever jobs needed doing. Not just those they wanted to do. Its a very military way of looking at things IMHO. Now, whether this is actually the case, or whether in fact FEMA had their heads up their asses, I couldn’t say at this point.
Because not all the folks at a fire house are SaR people. There are folks who run the trucks, who man the pumps, there are even secretaries and admin people at fire houses. In theory even these folks would be better equiped to handle the dire conditions (and would have, again in theory, more disipline) than average Joe Citizen. In addition, if you just did a general call to any willing citizen without narrowing it down, gods alone knows what you’d get. Lots of willing folks who didn’t have a clue (and had no disipline at all) rushing about getting into problems and perhaps causing more trouble than they are worth, a few nutballs and perhaps a few folks actually qualified to do the work that needs doing. Just screening a general call to any able bodied citizen would probably be an administrative nightmare…especially if you are in a rush, as we are.
-XT
Okay, there’s a third possibility that’s even more stupid than the two I considered. FEMA sent out a notice to fire departments asking for something that fire departments don’t really have.
If you’re managing FEMA, and you need people to hand out leaflets… do you go to firefighters hoping that they all have two man teams of secretaries ready to jump into the breach? Does that really make sense to you?
And let’s say that’s what they did. Once they got S&R folks… why not use them? Surely an agency that isn’t totally fucked can reevaluate and reorient itself to deal with new challenges and new resources?
I still don’t see how you’re viewing this. Let’s assume that they sent a letter around to fire fighters asking for a bunch of tasks. Why include leafleteers on that task list? And once they’ve got them, with enough gear to be self sufficient for a month, why not use them? Are they sure that there’s nobody still trapped under rubble? Have they dealt with all the downed trees? How about all the fires that they’re trying to put out now?
How could it possibly not be a fuckup? Even if they specifically requested people solely to hand out leaflets… why ask fire departments for that? Surely there were other people who could’ve done the job? And once they had firefighters, why not put them to work? Even if they hadn’t been asked for, they’re there now, and could’ve been used.
The thing is, your scenario still smacks of a clusterfuck.
You’re right, I shouldn’t have called you an apologist. It’s merely a bit difficult, as it’s the same rhetoric that the apologists have been laying on thick. It’s also been made worse because Bush is still supporting the fuckers at FEMA. At least you didn’t talk about “the blame game”. 
Seriously though, my apologies. I’m just used to seeing some chuckleheads defending Bush and his connection to FEMA and placing all the blame solely on the local level. I shouldn’t have forced my experiences onto you, my apologies.
I know it’s plausible. But let’s say you send for deck apes, and then the ship starts sinking and you need an engineer. And, look, there’s one right there! Well, he better get back to scrubbing the deck, right?
I’m trying to work from a standpoint of possible scenarios, as the original memo seems to not be on the 'net.
Why request leafleteers from fire departments at all? How about civilian volunteers instead? And once you have the firefighters, why not use them?
Do you deny that they need people to search the wreckage for survivors? To clear the streets? How about the fires? “Firefighters in New Orleans, lacking water, manpower and resources, continued to battle blazes and respond to emergecies as best possible as the weekend begins.”
I bet all those leafleteers could’ve been used to augment the manpower and resources, right?
Oh, and, this is the best I can do as I can’t seem to find the actual memo:
Sure seems like they specifically requested firefighters for community outreach. Which would, in and of itself, be a fuckup.
You are such a fucking liar. You opened your post with a condescending echo echo echo, made a bunch of assumptions and then moved on to accusations of knee-jerking about “nada” and then declared that “unless [you] see more on this, [you’re] not seeing what folks are getting this worked up about.”
Tell me again, whre was the question? Where was the “hope” that someone else could help you uncover “the truth”? Where was the expression of curiosity?
Fucking liar.
And you’re a fucking jerk, too. That kind of bullshit behavior isn’t allowed on this site, in case you forgot, asshole. I’m not accusing you of being a troll, but I will point out that behavior meets the definition of trolling.
Piss off.
The whole thing is a monstrous fuckup. People are dead or dying. FEMA is turning away food, water and medical supplies from Walmart, the Red Cross, and anyone else. People with boats were sent away instead of being allowed to get victims out. Two Navy chopper pilots were reprimanded for conducting rescues. One of the sheriffs there had to post armed deputies as “telephone pole guards” to keep FMEA from cutting phone lines. Trained fire/rescue people are being used to distribute flyers.
Rather than save people, The Administration cares more about propaganda and spin. They would rather let more people die than to fess up and admit they blew it. Their Homeland Security fell on its face. FEMA crashed and burned. Bush only cares about covering his sorry ass.
They all need to go. Bush, Brown, ALL of them. Danceswithcats has it right. Why should a trained fire or rescue person go to New Orleans, just to hand out fucking flyers?
Sure, I suppose I could see the logic in wanting trained personnel, even for such mundain tasks. Myself, I would have brought in the military to do this kind of thing in preference to fire and rescue…but I understand there are some problems with deploying regular military in this kind of situation.
I can also see the other side of this though, and can certainly see why folks think its a clusterfuck and a waste of trained personnel. Again, if we could actually see what was requested (I appreciate you looking and am sorry that I haven’t had time to really dig on this myself) by FEMA, then we’d be able to clearly deliniate whether this was a fuckup…and who fucked up if so. I grant you that FEMA is a prime candidate btw…I’ve only tried to argue that they don’t necessarily HAVE to be THE ONLY candidate, or that this situation is even as fucked up as people are making it out to be.
This is easier to understand IMHO. Say that you have the command and coordination capability along with the logistical capabilities to support, oh 5000 rescue workers in the disaster area (note, this figure is pulled out of the air and bears no relationship to reality). Say then that you get 8000 rescue workers in total. Now…what do you do with the excess 3000? Further, say you have the need in other areas for 2500 warm bodies to do other support type stuff. Seems logical to me that you would simply grab the volunteers and re-direct them to other jobs that need doing.
Again…is this whats actually happening? I have no idea. But I can certainly see logical reasons for doing the things that were done. Whether or not thats actually why? Fucked if I know.
Sure…I already conceeded that it could certainly be a clusterfuck. I’m not sure at this point is all.
No worries…and certainly no need to apologize at all. I have been called it before and probably will again. I think my posting style and my own political outlook is confusing to a lot of folks on this board since I go back and forth on the various issues, leaning one way on some and the other on others, and its simply easiest to peg me as a Bush supporter/apologist or whatever. C’est la vie. 
I agree with you that there are some serious blockheads who reflexively defend Bush no matter what, and can jump through some astonishing logical loopholes in order to do it. I think most of the worst ones are gone now, but there are a few hold outs remaining. Of course, the converse is true too…there are folks who will reflexively bash Bush no matter what also. A few of the worst of those are gone now too.
Sure, but in my scenerio the EXCESS engineers were put to scrubbing decks and chipping paint. Now, if the ship lost some engineers then of course you’d pull those folks off and send em to where they were needed most. And perhaps thats part of FEMA’s plan (if they actually have one :dubious: )…to use the excess folks in these kinds of tasks, and pull them off as the guys doing SaR are attrited (and they will be…they will get sick, hurt, or just shell shocked, and they will have to be replaced).
Certainly not. What I acknowledge is that at some point you reach a level where you are either not able to support the rescue efforts safely, or diminishing returns. If not, why not send 100,000 rescue workers in? How about a million? There has to be a point where throwing more warm bodies, even highly trained warm bodies, doesn’t buy you any more…and starts to cost you. Has that point been reached? No idea. But its plausable that they already have all the rescue workers they need in NO (and in all the other places that aren’t getting the big headlines)…and what they really need is folks to do other jobs. Do they need highly trained folks? Probably not, though its nice to have replacements on hand…or just have folks who can deal with a situation that might arrise in a professional fashion (to speculate: While handing out leaflets to an elderly resident, said resident has a heart attack or collapses from heat stroke…I’d rather have a fire fighter/EMT there than, well, say me).
-XT
That’s after they’d been getting shit, and it was clearly worded with that in mind. All links to the original memo are now redirected to the CYA “Thank you!” you found. Here’s the Google cache of the original notice.
It does explicitly say that it’s PR work – but way down the page, after the notice goes into redundancy. The notice does make it sound like they’re going to be doing actual disaster response work:
When the subject of the memo says “We need 1,000 2-person FIREFIGHTER TEAMS,” people are going to be reading it with the assumption that they’re looking for teams of people to, you know, fight fires. The idea of a 2-person firefighter team is a little wierd, but it’s not hard to imagine FEMA deploying 2,000 volunteers to look for small fires or the potential for small fires and deal with them while the water-bombers and full crews deal with the big fires. In that long preamble, which stresses the skills and and physical fitness that are required, it’s easy enough to slide past those four words “Community Relations Response Teams.” Actually, make that two words. “Response Team” sounds like an actual emergency services deal. "Once more into the breach, men! We’ve got a level three alarm! There’s a K-Mart in Waveland that hasn’t been leafleted yet.
The second part contains an explicit description of the work – but only after a nearly 100% redundant preamble of stuff that was mentioned in the first half:
Apparently, though-- in order to apply, volunteers had to fill in a box with “COMMUNITY RELATIONS DEPLOYMENT.” It might be reasonable to assume that this should be something of a clue.
Still – what a waste of human resources.
Since the controversy of what we (the fire service) was told continues to rage, let me attempt to inject fact.
On 31 Aug 05 the USFA (United States Fire Administration) dispatched an internet memo to listed individuals and departments requesting 1000 two-person teams from career (paid) fire departments. Travel to Atlanta for training on the Government’s tab, then deployment to NOLA. Deployment will last up to 120 days.
On 2 Sep 05 the same appeal was dispatched, but now included members of volunteer fire departments.
In review, the email did in fact use the words “community relations”. Unfortunately, most of us, myself included scanned the email and with disaster response mindset in place, formed the invalid presumption that we’d be doing the stuff we fire types like to do.
It was not until I began to hear of the upset in the fire community that I went back and reread the email in detail. That’s my error, and apparently many of us in emergency services misread the same way, but that said, it was still my personal oversight. Yes, it’s a misuse of personnel IMHO, but they were truthful by stating “community relations”.
At this juncture, the point is relatively moot as no more teams are being accepted or processed, the appeal closed as of 6 Sep 05. The USFA website has a memo posted stressing that deployment is “non-operational in nature”.
Hopefully this will clarify some of the misunderstanding.