# Feminism and slash fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 7, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045 "2003-04-07T12:46:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/21 "2003-04-07T20:32:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miss Mapp \* > \*\*True. Some of my best stuff is PG, with the slash all in the subtext, and little to no physical contact. \*\* I appreciate the acknowledgement–such comments are few and far between. (((((Miss Mapp))))) ---
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/22 "2003-04-07T20:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > **I was replying to the comment about all slash not being m/m. > I think the reason why there is more m/m is because there are more male characters to work with, so to speak. There are quite few shows with a sufficiant amount of main female chars to run proper slash on** I agree wholeheartedly, and apologize if my post seemed that I did not. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/23 "2003-04-07T21:09:13Z")
Not at all BuckleberryFerry, your post implied nothing of the sort 🙂 I was just saying why I thought it might be 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/24 "2003-04-07T21:14:18Z")
Fair enough–just wanted to make sure my post was adequate; I have a tendany to come off as rude when I post–tone of voice is never accurate online. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/25 "2003-04-07T22:15:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*A good friend of mine is a big slash fan and former slash writer, and she tells me she is continually amused by the attempts of some to intellectualize slash. “No man ever had to write an essay to justify wanting to see two chicks goin’ at it. It’s just porn! It’s not about subverting the dominant paradigm, it’s about hot guys!” \*\* YES! What she said! Hot guys doing it! Yeah! [www.wraithsandrogues.net](http://www.wraithsandrogues.net) Not all of it’s slash, but there’s a lot there. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/26 "2003-04-07T22:39:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*YES! What she said! Hot guys doing it! Yeah! > > [www.wraithsandrogues.net](http://www.wraithsandrogues.net) > > Not all of it’s slash, but there’s a lot there. \*\* Dude, you’re my new best friend. I ADORE Wedge! I remember the mock campaign slogans… “Don’t blame me, I voted for Antilles!” Dr. R. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/27 "2003-04-08T02:32:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Short Guy \* > \*\* > On the other hand, while I know plenty of men who find descriptions of lesbian acts exciting (I’m not entirely revolted by it myself), I’ve never met a woman who was turned on by the idea of two men engaging in sexual acts, as they say, and I do believe we’re talking about a minority of women here. > \*\* Oh man, you need to get out more. I used to be surprised when women I know would confess to being turned on by guy-on-guy action (not full out sex, mind you, but in that “Hey, we’re both straight and good looking, but let’s make out and see what happens”-way), but the more the topic comes up with whoever I’m with, the more I realize that basically every girl I talk to is into it. I swear. And not just the ones who watch Oz and Queer as Folk. ---
**Author:** ![stringy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@stringy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stringy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/28 "2003-04-08T02:37:01Z")
Although I agree that most slash writers/readers don’t engage in it specifically as a feminist act, it is still a matter of interest to feminists. This is because, as **lee** said: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > \*\*It tends to hook into aspects fo the female psyche that many have said don’t exist. \*\* Supposedly, women don’t like to imagine sex, we don’t like to imagine gay sex, we’re just not interested in this stuff. Therefore no industry comparable to the porn industry has grown around women’s sexual fantasies, because the marketing gurus _think_ it won’t sell. Most m/m porn caters to the gay male market (which is fair enough, why shouldn’t they have porn suited to them) but doesn’t have an equivalent for women. And so this feeds the myth that women don’t have any interest in sexual fantasy, unless it comes in a Mills & Boon format. People point to the lack of porn suited to women as if this proves that we don’t want any. So women, being more educated and empowered than in the past, have begun to create their own materials. And since we don’t have a marketing-minded person behind it all, telling us what we want, the stories and images are made to suit ourselves, and our tastes. There is a wide range of slash available, from friendship-based stories to explicit porn. I’m sure that there are women out there who say they don’t like porn because they’ve never found any that suits them - but maybe reading slash will help them create something that will fit their tastes. And as both a feminist and a slash-fan, I can see how slash is of interest to those who care about the changes in women’s powers to express themselves. Men don’t write essays justifying their porn, because it’s taken for granted. But women write essays justifying their own brand of porn, because there are too many people out there who don’t believe it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/29 "2003-04-08T04:08:47Z")
> [@](#): > > And as both a feminist and a slash-fan, I can see how slash is of interest to those who care about the changes in women’s powers to express themselves. Men don’t write essays justifying their porn, because it’s taken for granted. But women write essays justifying their own brand of porn, because there are too many people out there who don’t believe it’s possible. This is almost exactly what I was thinking–in fact, your whole post was. Thank you for expressing it so well! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![stringy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@stringy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stringy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/30 "2003-04-08T04:32:17Z")
Aw, shucks… thankyou! I was worried I was going to forget the point by trying to include too much about what was on my mind. By the way - thanks to all those who’ve provided links. Very good stuff! ---
**Author:** ![Short\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Short\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Short_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/31 "2003-04-08T07:22:09Z")
[Quote] _Originally posted by Lamia_ **You think you’ve never met a woman turned on by the idea. Surely you aren’t privy to the sexual fantasies of every woman you know!** [Quote] Alas, no :D. But I’ve had a surprisingly large amount of conversations on the subject over the years, and the general consensus seems to be ‘no’. But, as this thread proves, they certainly exist. And I can certainly understand \*\*Pepperlandgirl \*\*'s “hot+hot=hothot” consideration. ---
**Author:** ![bifar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bifar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bifar)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/32 "2003-04-08T09:52:47Z")
Thanks for all the links, people! I will peruse them – ah – later. **Stringy** , I thought your post was excellent. It really summed up what I was thinking. I find it amazing that people can still wonder what turns women on when slash is such a good resource. You get women’s and men’s magazines talking about how girlies like massages and scented candles while one click on the interweb can take you to Spike and Xander doin’ it rough and dirty in a dungeon! The contrast is amazing. But it seems to be part of the subversion that slash is kind of ‘secret’, not published out in the open. (I know its apparent to those in the know, but the majority are ignorant.) I heard somewhere that magazine publishers, every so often, try and launch magazines that contain porn for girlies. And each time they flop, because women simply don’t want to buy porn over the counter. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/33 "2003-04-08T11:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bifar \* > \*\*But it seems to be part of the subversion that slash is kind of ‘secret’, not published out in the open. (I know its apparent to those in the know, but the majority are ignorant.) I heard somewhere that magazine publishers, every so often, try and launch magazines that contain porn for girlies. And each time they flop, because women simply don’t want to buy porn over the counter. \*\* I’ve been thinking about this since I posted last night, and there are two reasons I can think of why a general slash industry wouldn’t get off the ground. As I said above–and again, I’m speaking for myself, but believe there are others who feel the same way–I’m only interested particular characters and their relationships. I wouldn’t buy a magazine that featured anonymous guys, or guys I didn’t have any interest in. Second, there is the copyright issue. We are for the most part playing with other people’s fictional characters, and I don’t think a company like Paramount, for example, would let Kirk and Spock be used in this context if a publisher intending to do a slash zine asked for permission. One of my big worries is that someone will come down hard on the copyright issue at some point soon. For years, while slash was underground, it could be ignored by copyright holders. However, more people are aware of the existence of slash now that it’s on the internet–there are so many mailing lists, live journals, websites. And, let’s face it, we don’t have a legal leg to stand on; if someone makes an issue of it, the websites will have to come down. I don’t think this will kill slash, but it will send it back underground. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BuckleberryFerry_ > **I appreciate the acknowledgement–such comments are few and far between. (((((Miss Mapp)))))** Thank you for the hug! I did consider putting up links to these stories on my site, but have decided against it, since my real name and e-mail address are on everything. I write mostly DS9 stories (mostly Garak/Bashir), but have recently started on LOTR (Frodo/Sam). If anyone’s interested in seeing them, just let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/34 "2003-04-08T13:03:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*And so this feeds the myth that women don’t have any interest in sexual fantasy, unless it comes in a Mills & Boon format. \*\* Can someone please educate me as to what a Mills & Boon format is? **Bifar** , your comment on how the media says we like only massages and candles and yet you can go online to see X/S doin’ tha deed all nasty in a dungeon is so dead on. Just like girl on girl action does not entice all men, or does not entice a certain man all the time, same goes for women and the soft squishy romance stuff. Yes, certainly… but not as an exculsive diet. I would love to see some links to quality Frodo/Sam stuff too… so much of it is dreck. I know, 95% of everything is crap… Dr. R ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/35 "2003-04-08T14:38:34Z")
Some theorizers theorize that the main appeal of female on female sex to men, is that beyond the tittilation of the voyeur aspect is that they somehow imagine themsleves (overtly or subliminally) to be in a position to “complete” the triangle and satisfy both women and that this is somehow psychologically satisfying and empowering. Not having read any female slash is this one of the appeals of man on man slash sex for women, in that they imagine themsleves (overtly or subliminally) being a potential third leg to the triangle and making it complete, ie a Spike/pepperlandgirl/ Angel sandwich. At it’s deepest roots, does the male on male slash appeal for straight women consist of overtly or subliminally being a potential part of the action, or simply in observing, or both? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/36 "2003-04-08T15:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > being a potential third leg to the triangle and making it complete, ie a Spike/pepperlandgirl/Angel sandwich Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. _drool_ ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/37 "2003-04-08T16:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\*Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. _drool_ \*\* Hmmm… theory confirmed, third leg of …umm, ah “triangle” hypothesis is apparently locked in place. Locked snugly too! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/38 "2003-04-08T23:55:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Righteous \* > \*\*Dude, you’re my new best friend. I ADORE Wedge! I remember the mock campaign slogans… “Don’t blame me, I voted for Antilles!” > > Dr. R. \*\* Antilles-Celchu 2004!!! **stringy** -what is Mills and Boon? When I first came across slash, I thought-eewww…icky! But then I read it. And let’s just say my view changed VERY dramatically! And I could REALLY go for a Face/ **Guin** /Ton sandwich, yes I could. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/39 "2003-04-09T00:16:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\* > Guy A is hot. Guy B is hot. Thus, sex between Guy A and Guy B would indeed, be hot. \*\* Amen, Sister! And don’t get me started on the “women aren’t turned on by dirty pictures” thing. I think the comments about women not wanting to buy porn over the counter are dead on. Good girls don’t get turned on by dirty pictures. Good girls don’t read dirty stories. Good girls are reduced to imagining it for themselves, because even though the feelings are assuredly there, good girls sure as heck won’t say anything about it, lest they be taken for Bad Girls. I strongly suspect more straight women are…amused by guy/guy sex than want to let on, just as others have said. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045/40 "2003-04-09T02:52:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Not having read any female slash is this one of the appeals of man on man slash sex for women, in that they imagine themsleves (overtly or subliminally) being a potential third leg to the triangle and making it complete, ie a Spike/pepperlandgirl/ > Angel sandwich. At it’s deepest roots, does the male on male slash appeal for straight women consist of overtly or subliminally being a potential part of the action, or simply in observing, or both? I can’t speak for everyone, obviously, but jokes aside, I don’t think most slash is written with that in mind. Certainly mine isn’t (at least not overtly.) When the discussion has come up before, I’ve seen most women saying they usually position themselves as an invisible observer, not a participant. That said, there is a definite tendency in slash to “feminize” one or more of the men in the relationship, which could be taken as an almost Mary Sue type situation. It’s typically viewed as very bad form, but it’s still there. It could also just be the result of stereotypes or the desire to fit two men into a traditional romantic relationship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminism-and-slash-fiction/167045.md?page=3)