Not really. There are damn few campuses where feminists have not given it their all, and they have usually attained at least some considerations. But examine the state of “Women’s Studies” on most campuses today and you’ll find:
• Many of them are “certificate programs” (other terms may be in vogue now), meaning that they are just listings of Psychology Department classes that happen to pertain to women and/or gender; Sociology Department classess that happen to pertain to women and/or gender; History classes…well you get the idea. Classes, in other words, that were already there and which address women as subject matter without necessarily presenting any of the subject from the theoretical vantage point of feminist theory. You take a bunch of those classes you get the certificate. No (or few) permanent or dedicated faculty positions for WS.
• Courses that are more ostensibly “feminist” include a lot of “works by women” courses in literature, art, philosophy, and so on. Generally very little feminist theory is taught here either. You (december) may argue that the oft-mentioned “dead European white men” are or were better authors, poets, artists, and so on, and that this is just a form of academic “affirmative action” for women thinkers. I’d disagree with you, but that’s really neither here nor there, as it has nothing really to do with feminist theory except insofar as femtheory has been used as a tool for questioning the standards of excellence by which the “dead European white men” were said to constitute the “canon of excellence”. (If that’s all you’re attempting to pick an argument against, please let me know).
• Actual feminist theory courses – courses in which feminist theory is taught as a framework roughly parallel to and in contrast to theories such as structuralism-functionalism , marxism/socialist theory, social determinism, transactional “game” theory, and other variable-defining & background-concept-laying tools – are fairly rare and many of them ARE INDEED BOGUS but not in the way that I think you mean. A great many of them are bogus because they pretend to be presentations of feminist theory when actually they are merely presentations of a few convoluted hybrid strands of feminist-adaptations-of-nonfeminist-theory such as “socialist feminism” and “poststructuralist feminism”.
• Content courses for which theory is applicable for research papers and data analysis and hypothesis formulation abound on a college campus, but it is a rare college where courses on Economics in the Middle East 1300-1650 or Jurisprudence and the American Courtroom would be taught by professors who utilize feminist theory (the real stuff not socialist or postie crap, btw) as readily as they utilize marxist concepts in describing things that took place, forces that were in play, factors that students need to be aware of, etc etc etc. [You’ll hear “socio-economic status” four times per lecture; “ruling class” from your more marxist professors several times per semester; “social structure” as an unquestioned axiomatic presence once every fourth sentence; “deviance” and “market forces” from your structuralist profs two or three times per lecture; but you could attend every class except feminist theory without ever hearing adjectives like “patriarchal” or noun phrases like “subject/object dynamics” applied to anything except women and women’s specific concerns, if even there]
See above. People with your attitudes towards feminist theory are well-represented among tenured faculty, even if many of them are considerably more fond of Karl Marx and Thorstein Veblen than you would be. I can’t think of any universities that have stand-alone graduate-degree-conferring Feminist Studies Departments (by that title or any other), tenured feminist faculty running them, and big budgets. Perhaps you could name the ones you had in mind?
It won’t be mine. Okay, I’m at a private liberal-arts college, not a university, but december once slammed my school for daring to make three hours of Women’s Studies a graduation requirement so if he even remembers that he might want to use it as an example. But I just confirmed in my academic catalog that there is no Women’s Studies major available here. There’s an interdisciplinary minor, coordinated by a professor from the English department, made up primarily of courses cross-listed with other departments (the same ones that can be used to fulfill the Women’s Studies general graduation requirement). There are a couple of courses offered that are listed only as Women’s Studies, but they are all taught by professors from the English, So/An, and Com departments. There’s a 400-level “Constructing Feminist Theory” for seniors with the minor, but that’s not even offered this year…I guess there aren’t any senior Women’s Studies minors this year.
“Equal” and “different” are not quite opposite, but they are inconsistent. Things that are different cannot be equal.
This is true, but these demands are justified because of the claim that women have equal ability.
That supports my POV. Since academic feminism isn’t tied to the real world, it’s free to be ever-changing. OTOH subjects like geography, astronomy, mathematics, operations research, engineering, and chemistry are pretty stable.
It sure has. IMHO the academic feminists deserve no credit at all for these advances. My assertions is meant to be a part of this thread. I invite debate on this point.
If your point is that there are other bogus subjects that are also popular at universities, then I agree. (Maybe we need a new thread called ‘Queer theory is bogus.’)
Only if you’re using some sort of Newspeak definition of the word “equal”. Catholics and Protestants are different. Democrats and Republicans are different. Tall people and short people are different. Blondes and brunettes are different. And yet members of these different groups are equal in all ways under US law and about as equal in opportunity and in society in general as is reasonably possible.
:sigh: all this time in GD, all these threads started, and you still don’t get how this process works. You are the one asserting that feminist theory is bogus. It is your burden of setting forth that it is bogus, not others burden to demonstrate that it is not bogus.
:sigh::sigh: Yes, I have the burden of proving that academic feminism is bogus. But, AHunter3 has the burden of proving that [ul][li]The reason feminist theory carries weight is because it did and does a damn good job of explaining everyday life to laborers, young housewives, airline flight attendants, senators, bag women, board moderators, grandmas, fishermen, astronauts, and nurses. []Feminism had its origins and its popularity among everyday people, []Feminism only made its way into academia as some of those everyday people took it to college with them.[/ul]All three of these allegations go beyond simply denying the OP. [/li]
I do like the alliteration of the feminist fishermen, although I’ve never met any. The phrase deserves to be the title of a poem.
**THE FEMINIST FISHERMEN
The feminist fishermen surely are odd
They spoil the child, but don’t spare the rod.
They promote every word in the feminist book
And their students devour it: line, sinker and hook.
They claim to oppose anti-feminine hate
But, the’re really just using that claim as their bait.
Opposing the sinner they say is their wish
But, they really want dinner, when they eat up their fish.**
“Pretty stable?” Please discuss the first 50 years of academic development in each of those disciplines and establish a guideline for “pretty stable” as a measure of academic certification.
Please tell me who does deserve “all the credit”. Afterwards, we can discuss how whether your conviction serves as sufficient evidence (to yourself, obviously) for Ahunter3’s statement: The reason feminist theory carries weight is because it did and does a damn good job of explaining everyday life to laborers, young housewives, airline flight attendants, senators, bag women , board moderators, grandmas, fishermen, astronauts, and nurses. It had its origins and its popularity among everyday people, and it only made its way into academia as some of those everyday people took it to college with them.
True. But the paragraph can be incorrect without validating your OP.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by december *
**:sigh::sigh: Yes, I have the burden of proving that academic feminism is bogus. But, AHunter3 has the burden of proving that [ul][li]The reason feminist theory carries weight is because it did and does a damn good job of explaining everyday life to laborers, young housewives, airline flight attendants, senators, bag women, board moderators, grandmas, fishermen, astronauts, and nurses. []Feminism had its origins and its popularity among everyday people, Feminism only made its way into academia as some of those everyday people took it to college with them.[/ul]All three of these allegations go beyond simply denying the OP.**[/li][/QUOTE]
Am I to assume to you refuse to prove your own assertion, but will insist that others disprove it first? I guess you like to make the cart drag the horse along too, hmm?
If you throw it at escape velocity and it quantum-tunnels through the ceiling and you neglect air resistance and you threw it in the right place at the right time with the right velocity and you miss any passing birds or planes, no.
It would implode/melt/shatter in outer space.
Avalonian, the poem offered nothing NEW to prove my assertion. However, I did offer some proof several posts ago. Please feel free to respond to those.
Others already have… it’s bunk. I see no need to repeat their refutations.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You should define feminist theory in a way that encapsulates all of it, and then show why it is all “bogus.” In short, demonstrate some understanding of feminist literature and thought and its origins… or redefine your OP to something like what Scylla suggested above. So far, you have demonstrated that your understanding of feminist philosophy is bogus in itself.
And requiring others to disprove your assertion before you have adequately proven it is nothing short of ludicrous.
I have seen no evidence at all that december knows what “feminist theory” is.
Since december started this thread, he should define the topic and then defend his assertion. He hasn’t done that.
Like many reactionaries, december speaks in code, unable to say what he means. December expects people to accept his code, which assumes that we find december to be a credible source, an “authority” of some sort.
I don’t find december to be an authority on anything, and I don’t accept his code.
I think that december doesn’t even know what he’s talking about, and therefore cannot mean what he purports to say.
This entire thread is just december shouting in an empty barrel, listening for echoes.
lout, “feminist theory” is defined as the theories propounded by those people who are called feminist
intellectuals – particularly writers and professors.
I certainly agree, but I don’t think the OP’s claim is extraordinary. Scylla, a self-described feminist, agreed that beyond a certain point, academic feminism is bogus. elucidator agreed that “some feminist theorizing is crapola.” seal_clubber agreed that, " There is a certain amount of bullshit in women’s studies," and offered the “they all do it” defense: “but name an academic discipline free of it.” So, seal_clubber believes that quite a bit of academic work is bullshit. bifar agreed, “that the kind of feminism taught in academia can seem a little far away from the problems of real women.”
In short, a number of posters have accepted the idea that some portion of feminism is bogus. It’s by no means extraordinary to postulate that a lot of it is bogus.
This is an ongoing problem for debunkers. There’s no limit to the complexity that can be created by a faker. Fakers can write in ways that are extremely difficult to understand. Then they say, “You can’t refute my claims, because you don’t fully understand them.” But, who wants to spend all that effort to master something that he considers to be balogna? Even if we did, the fakers still wouldn’t accept our criticisms.
So, I assert that feminist theory ought to be judged on a broader basis. Here are some reasons I doubt it:[ol][li]No part of it has ever been validated AFAIK. Despite Ahunter3’s claim, it has not been shown to do a good job of explaining everyday life to fishermen and the other groups s/he mentioned.[]Feminism isn’t even well-defined. There are many strains. bifar mentions “the wide range of different feminism around.” This is not good. It means that “feminism” is whatever a feminist does. AHunter3 says, “A great many of them [feminist theory courses] are bogus because they pretend to be presentations of feminist theory when actually they are merely presentations of a few convoluted hybrid strands of feminist-adaptations-of-nonfeminist-theory such as ‘socialist feminism’ and ‘poststructuralist feminism’.” Presumably she means that they’re hybrid strains of the real thing. But, there is no “the real thing.” [/li]
YMMV. However, if you disagree, I challenge you to tell us what the essense of real feminist theory is.[]Feminism (or some feminists) have encouraged certain invalid ideas, such as recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse. Acceptance of this fraud created a panic that was the 20th century’s version of the Salem Witch Trials. E.g., see[/ol]
I just read the article to which December linked, and I have to say that it’s a painfully sensationalist diatribe with little factual foundation. Or rather, it has a factual foundation that it distorts ridiculously. It cites a nice selection of horror stories with no indication of how systemic they are, or how common. It also makes some ridiculous mistakes.
To quote two obvious examples:
The article fails to mention that these same men were found guilty of rape and sentenced to death, along with several members of the tribal council who ordered the punitive rape.
This is just ass wrong. Radical feminism starts from the insight that gender differences are the primary sociological division by which people are socialized, and goes on the examine the consequences of that. It doesn’t claim men are naturally more aggressive, it claims that men are socialized to be more aggressive (and women to be less aggressive), and that there are observable consequences to this.
Really, December, bother to learn something about what you’re ranting against.
I’ll tell you what, December: email me an address where I can mail to you my reader from my Introduction to Feminism class that I took during my philosophy degree. Then come back and argue that feminism is somehow less valid than philosophy, sociology, or psychology as an academic discipline.