# Feminists treat men badly. It’s bad for feminism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149 "2016-07-05T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/181 "2016-07-08T16:35:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I hope not. I strive to not say or do racist things, and challenge those racist actions and words that I see others say or do. In the past I have said racist things, and failed to challenge the racist words of others, and I’m very regretful for having done so. As for myself, absolutely I’m racist. How couldn’t I be, growing up in the racist culture I’ve grown up in? I’m deeply skeptical of anyone who claims otherwise. It’s the moral equivalent of claiming your shit doesn’t stink. What I will say about myself is that I pay attention to myself, watch what I say and do, watch for cases where I might say or do something racist, and try through this introspection to minimize the influence of racism on my deeds and words. I try to work against racism in our society. No claims whatsoever to my success, but it’s what I try to do. This isn’t a noble thing I do, any more than wiping my ass after taking a dump is noble. It’s just what a person does to be decent in society. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/182 "2016-07-08T16:35:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Not even when he says the exact same thing that Martin Luther King says? How can that be? > > Also, was MLK always right about everything? You haven’t, or feel you can’t, disagree with him about anything at all? As long as we’re trading escalating rhetorical questions, where the everloving fuck did you get that idea? Do you understand why nobody believes you’re engaging in a good faith discussion of this? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/183 "2016-07-08T16:36:59Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > The examples given in the column aren’t examples of men being bashed for being men. They are examples of men being mocked for being stupid (or vulgar or whiney). Oh, please. Did you actually read it? > [@](#): > > Look, if you don’t want to be mocked for saying something stupid, don’t say something stupid, or text a picture of your genitalia to a stranger, or interrupt an expert in the field to voice your shallow understanding of her field of expertise. Nice straw man. Those aren’t what are being discussed in the article. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/184 "2016-07-08T16:37:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I think you’re the one who is an impediment to justice, but I’m only saying that because you seem to think you can talk about me the same way. Cool! You make a claim with no reason except a vague sense of retribution. In your defense, this isn’t the weakest support for a claim you’ve offered in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/185 "2016-07-08T16:38:01Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > As long as we’re trading escalating rhetorical questions, where the everloving fuck did you get that idea? Do you understand why nobody believes you’re engaging in a good faith discussion of this? Really? My questions are spot on. Can you answer them? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/186 "2016-07-08T16:40:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cool! You make a claim with no reason except a vague sense of retribution. In your defense, this isn’t the weakest support for a claim you’ve offered in this thread. Not retribution. I really do believe you are an impediment to justice. I wouldn’t normally discuss you, as you are not the topic, just like I am not the topic. I only discuss you because you brought up the idea that the messenger matters. I just wanted you to know what I think on that topic. I don’t think you should get to go around saying I’m an impediment to justice without you knowing that someone thinks the same of you. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/187 "2016-07-08T16:42:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As for myself, absolutely I’m racist. Awesome. So you’re a racist. What now? What if you had said you are not racist - you’d still be racist, right? See how absurd this conversation is? Everybody is a racist. Nobody can ever not be racist. If you say you’re not a racist, it means you actually are a racist. What’s the point? Instead of playing games with labels of people, perhaps we should discuss issues and values and stuff like that. The topic, rather than the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/188 "2016-07-08T16:42:51Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Not retribution. > > I really do believe you are an impediment to justice. > > I wouldn’t normally discuss you, as you are not the topic, just like I am not the topic. I only discuss you because you brought up the idea that the messenger matters. I just wanted you to know what I think on that topic. I don’t think you should get to go around saying I’m an impediment to justice without you knowing that someone thinks the same of you. That’s all. Again, the only support you offer for an idea is retributive; in this apparent attempt at elaborating on your earlier jab, you literally offer nothing else to support your claim. If that were abnormal for your posts in this thread, I’d ask you to explain; as it is, I’m just going to keep being amused at your posts. Meanwhile, I’m off to pray at my altar to St. Martin! > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Awesome. > > So you’re a racist. > > What now? > > See how absurd this conversation is? Your side of the conversation has been absurd since the first post. This quoting me out of context is not the most absurd thing you’ve said in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/189 "2016-07-08T16:44:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Really? > > My questions are spot on. > > Can you answer them? Oh, well, if they’re _spot on_. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/190 "2016-07-08T16:46:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The article […] brings up a few instances of anti-male prejudice and disparagement that we all agree are bad […] > > Mind you, this is not in any way to argue that **specific** instances of misandry or male-bashing shouldn’t be called out. If the author had titled her article “Some Instances of Self-Identified Feminists Saying Things That Are Derogatory to Men”, and devoted the article to describing and explaining the problems with those specific instances, I doubt anybody here would be disagreeing with that. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But hey, can you at least agree that IF these things were happening, they’d be wrong and counterproductive? Or is that too much? :rolleyes: Help me out here, folks. Is there any possible way I could have stated my remarks more clearly? Is there any rational justification at all for **lance strongarm** , if he actually read my post that he replied to, still thinking that the question he subsequently asked had not already been sufficiently answered? I try not to be hasty in dismissing communication with specific posters as a hopeless cause, but in this case I’m not feeling optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/191 "2016-07-08T16:47:53Z")
You’re not being hasty. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/192 "2016-07-08T16:48:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :rolleyes: Help me out here, folks. Is there any possible way I could have stated my remarks more clearly? Your remarks were perfectly clear. In this conversation, your communication skills are not at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/193 "2016-07-08T16:48:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What’s the point? Lance, you Have no point and after 3 posts in a row I’m hoping you’ll move on. Three posts & very few replies. Get the Hint? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/194 "2016-07-08T16:51:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’d say that you need to get out more and actually see this stuff happening, because it is happening. It’s real. She never claimed it was a “study” or a college paper. It’s an opinion column, just like your response. > > It’s sad that you just dismiss problems instead of discussing them, but at least you’re back on topic. > > But hey, can you at least agree that IF these things were happening, they’d be wrong and counterproductive? Or is that too much? Of course its happening, of course its real. No one is arguing that no feminist ever is disrespectful to men. However, the question is: How prevalent is it - statistically, not anecdotally. Have any studies been done on how harmful these attitudes are towards feminism - does it make feminist men, or feminist women - want to disassociate with the word? Does it turn off moderates? In what proportion - i.e. how significant is the effect. Does it do real world harm - how much less an hour are men making as a result of their objectification in society. How much more likely are they to be physically violated? Street harassed? Does their portrayal in the media result in fewer employment opportunities and discrimination in hiring? (I know one big one I’d hit with a study - men are not child predators simply because they are men. Just because a strange man asks a little girl on a playground if she is ok after she fell down, doesn’t mean you need to call the cops. But I only have anecdotes on that - to me, its a huge problem). How about “how does this compare with the way other minorities are treated” - are we leveling the playing field by bringing men (particularly white men) down. That wouldn’t be the way I’d want to level the playing field, but if that is the case, is there a net good result to society when we lower the disparity in how we are treated, even if it means some people don’t get treated as well as they used to be? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/195 "2016-07-08T16:52:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you really need to ask me that? Yes, obviously. Would you say you’re the least racist person you know? See my point? There are two ways people use the term racist. One is beliefs and values, and the other is behavior. One can believe that racism is wrong but still make mistakes in their behavior that have racist outcomes. Anyone who strives, like you, not to behave in a racist way obviously starts with a believe that racism is wrong. And one can also say they are not a racist when describing their beliefs and values. That doesn’t mean they have succeeded in purifying and perfecting themselves to never do or think anything racist. So it’s unfair, and ridiculous, to say that anyone who says they aren’t racist just doesn’t know what racism is. I am not racist because I believe racism is wrong. I may unintentionally do or say something racist that I later regret after realizing it. That doesn’t make me racist, it makes me human. It’s wrong to try to steal a person’s thoughts by saying that they can’t say they aren’t racist. They speak for themselves, and they are usually talking about their beliefs when they say that. If you want to call yourself a racist just because you aren’t perfect, that’s fine. Don’t do it to others. > [@](#): > > And I will look askance at any white person who tries to start a conversation about anti-white racism, and be unlikely to believe that they are actually interested in stopping racism, and more likely to believe that they are more interested in putting down black people or advocating for white supremacy. Because, in my experience, the vast, vast majority of white people who have tried to start conversations about anti-white racism have been white supremacists, of one flavor or another. Ah, so you’re judging people by the actions of others. Great. Way to go in a thread about racism and sexism. So here we go again. Is anti-white racism wrong? Yes or no? Remember, either way you answer, you’re screwed, by your own making. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/196 "2016-07-08T16:54:28Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Of course its happening, of course its real. No one is arguing that no feminist ever is disrespectful to men. > [@](#): > > However, the question is: How prevalent is it Why is that the question? If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. If it is not very prevalent, fine. I’m glad. As long as you don’t think that makes it less wrong. If not, what more is there to say? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/197 "2016-07-08T16:58:13Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If it is not very prevalent, fine. I’m glad. As long as you don’t think that makes it less wrong. If not, what more is there to say? Well, one more thing to say might be, _“Describing something that’s not actually very prevalent with a generalization as sweeping as **‘Feminists Treat Men Badly’** is kind of stupid.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/198 "2016-07-08T17:07:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And I will look askance at any white person who tries to start a conversation about anti-white racism, and be unlikely to believe that they are actually interested in stopping racism, and more likely to believe that they are more interested in putting down black people or advocating for white supremacy. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So here we go again. Is anti-white racism wrong? Yes or no? _:looks askance at lance strongarm_ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/199 "2016-07-08T17:15:41Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Would you say you’re the least racist person you know? Absolutely not. I’d never say anything like that. I seriously doubt that’s true, and if I started to suspect it was, then I’d chide myself for slipping into the exact problem that is so common. > [@](#): > > See my point? No, I don’t. Not at all. > [@](#): > > There are two ways people use the term racist. One is beliefs and values, and the other is behavior. One can believe that racism is wrong but still make mistakes in their behavior that have racist outcomes. Anyone who strives, like you, not to behave in a racist way obviously starts with a believe that racism is wrong. > > And one can also say they are not a racist when describing their beliefs and values. That doesn’t mean they have succeeded in purifying and perfecting themselves to never do or think anything racist. > > So it’s unfair, and ridiculous, to say that anyone who says they aren’t racist just doesn’t know what racism is. > > I am not racist because I believe racism is wrong. I may unintentionally do or say something racist that I later regret after realizing it. That doesn’t make me racist, it makes me human. It’s wrong to try to steal a person’s thoughts by saying that they can’t say they aren’t racist. They speak for themselves, and they are usually talking about their beliefs when they say that. If you want to call yourself a racist just because you aren’t perfect, that’s fine. Don’t do it to others. I’ll call people as I see them, and you may have noticed that I almost never call people racist. But when you say “I’m not racist”, yes, it makes me believe that you don’t understand racism. Because no one can truly know that, even about their own values and beliefs. You are free to say it all you want, and I am free to judge you as having a lesser understanding of racism, in my opinion, for saying that. I don’t suspect that you are racist because you say that, but I do suspect that you don’t have a full understanding of racism. > [@](#): > > Ah, so you’re judging people by the actions of others. Great. Way to go in a thread about racism and sexism. I’m not judging – I’m analyzing based on evidence, including past history. I’m not making any conclusions – “looking askance” isn’t making a conclusion on anyone. I’ll look askance at someone wearing a white sheet, because of the history of people wearing white sheets… but there could be another explanation for wearing a white sheet. Would you look askance at a stranger wearing a white sheet? > [@](#): > > So here we go again. Is anti-white racism wrong? Yes or no? Remember, either way you answer, you’re screwed, by your own making. No I’m not – you still don’t seem to understand my opinion. All racism, including anti-white racism is wrong. Anti-white racism is a miniscule problem in our society. When someone brings up anti-white racism as a problem, then I look askance, since I think back on all the history of people bringing up anti-white racism as a problem. Just as when someone walks in wearing a white sheet, I look back on all the history of people wearing a white sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/200 "2016-07-08T17:18:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No I’m not – you still don’t seem to understand my opinion. All racism, including anti-white racism is wrong. Anti-white racism is a miniscule problem in our society. As a minor addendum to this, things can change. Last night’s murder of cops in Dallas appears, at this point, to be a terrorist attack motivated by anti-white racism. If events like last night start occurring with anything approaching regularity, anti-white racism will move to being a major problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=11)