# Feminists treat men badly. It’s bad for feminism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149 "2016-07-05T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/81 "2016-07-06T21:03:48Z")
So people are criticizing feminists for being aggressive and deliberately offensive (aka not acting like demure, submissive women)? What was the definition of “sexist” again? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/82 "2016-07-06T21:32:27Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > So people are criticizing feminists for being **aggressive and deliberately offensive (aka not acting like demure, submissive** women)? > What was the definition of “sexist” again? Are these the only 2 behavioral options that you think are available? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/83 "2016-07-06T21:36:38Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > So people are criticizing feminists for being aggressive and deliberately offensive (aka not acting like demure, submissive women)? > What was the definition of “sexist” again? Either there’s an excluded middle or feminists have become just as jerkish as they’ve always said men can be (which I’m not sure is something to celebrate). ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/84 "2016-07-06T21:40:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Rubbish. There’s two things going on here. First, a bunch of people observed that there was this phenomenon going on wherein a bunch of people of a certain gender felt the need to condescendingly overexplain certain ideas, but only to an audience of a certain gender. They wanted to discuss this phenomenon, and one thing that discussing it easier is naming it. That’s one. Two is that they chose a name which contains a reference to the gender doing the condescending overexplaining, and is clearly designed to help someone encountering the word for the first time to understand it easily. So which aspect of this sexist? > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Ordinarily I’d just chalk this up to an exceedingly subtle whoosh and move on, but since this is a point worth making and I’ve invested a bit of effort already: > > _ **mansplaining** _: When a man explains something to a woman in a tone deemed condescending. i.e. “There is this enormous collection of electronic computers in a massive remote configuration, which we call the Cloud, and some of them are called Google, and those ones help you look up terms like this.” > > _ **tone policing** _: Criticizing the tone of a text without addressing its content (brought to you by the creators of _mansplaining_). I understand those _terms_, it’s your _point_ which continues to elude me, and presumably, others. > [@](#): > > Suffice to say I’m on your side of this matter, but not without some reservations. Uh, thanks? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/85 "2016-07-06T21:57:04Z")
> [@Do Not Taunt](#): > > There’s two things going on here. First, a bunch of people observed that there was this phenomenon going on wherein a bunch of people of a certain gender felt the need to condescendingly overexplain certain ideas, but only to an audience of a certain gender. They wanted to discuss this phenomenon, and one thing that discussing it easier is naming it. That’s one. Two is that they chose a name which contains a reference to the gender doing the condescending overexplaining, and is clearly designed to help someone encountering the word for the first time to understand it easily. So which aspect of this sexist? Probably the implication that women don’t condescend to men. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/86 "2016-07-07T01:29:24Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I can’t think of a good justification for the opposite course of action (i.e., deliberately continuing to act or speak in a way that offends someone). If you’re trying to argue against feeling retroactively bad about it once you’re informed, or against refraining from ever doing whatever it is, I’m somewhat on board, but I can’t see how to defend not stopping doing it around the person going forward. Let’s say someone is offended because I hold hands with a person of the same gender in public. According to your theory I should refrain from doing so again in their presence to avoid hurting their feelings, right? I can think of a very large number of extremely good reasons to keep the same course of action despite someone being offended by it. > [@](#): > > The alternative would be to say that there is an objective definition of “wronged” independent of how people feel. Sometimes we do say this; sometimes it is necessary to say this (e.g., in the law). But among people, casually, I’m not sure how someone can feel wronged without being wronged Feeling wronged is purely subjective. Being wronged requires some level of objective assessment, for instance based on generally accepted social norms, or on logic. For instance : I feel wronged because you talked to another woman, I feel wronged because I dreamt you were cheating on me with another woman, I feel wronged because you actually cheated on me with another woman. These three statements are equally true, but would you argue that the person is indeed wronged in all three cases just because she feels so? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/87 "2016-07-07T03:59:19Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > A few decades ago I was discussing with a friend whether the name “Washington Redskins” was offensive. I said I didn’t think it was intended to be. My friend said that that didn’t matter;\*\* if you want to know if something is offensive you don’t ask the person who made the comment, you ask the person who heard it. \*\*That’s always stuck with me. I believe I’ve tried to live by it. And it seems to be a cornerstone of social movements, too, including feminism; that women’s lived experiences, opinions, and feelings, if expressed sincerely, are valid on their face. I have to echo \*\*clairobscur \*\*on this one: This kind of “If-someone-is-offended-then-their-sensibilities-must-be-catered-to” philosophy can inadvertently feed all kinds of tyranny. What if someone is offended at the sight of African-American and white children going to school together? Should the school undergo racial segregation to placate the offended person? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/88 "2016-07-07T04:00:53Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve seen commercials with grown men who haven’t mastered fire, or being outsmarted by chimps or small children. I don’t hear much about what that does to boys’ self-esteem; setting a realistic view of what they can hope to achieve when they grow up. I wholeheartedly agree with this. This is the reason that \*“Scold or mock someone until they improve!” \*rarely works - rather than making someone improve, it often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Shaming someone is rarely an effective approach. If men are depicted as being stupid, then men may believe that being stupid is all that society expects of them, or that the bar is set that low for them and that they don’t have to aim high for anything. Incidentally, I think that certain scenes from Pixar’s \*Brave \*were vicious in the way that they ridiculed men and boys. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/89 "2016-07-07T04:21:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I have to echo \*\*clairobscur \*\*on this one: This kind of “If-someone-is-offended-then-their-sensibilities-must-be-catered-to” philosophy can inadvertently feed all kinds of tyranny. What if someone is offended at the sight of African-American and white children going to school together? Should the school undergo racial segregation to placate the offended person? I never said all (of any) of their wishes had to be catered to. I just think it’s dishonest and often hypocritical to acknowledge the feelings of some people and not others. If someone doesn’t want to see African-American and white children going to school together, I’d tell him “too bad, those kids’ access to a fair education, to meet and make friends with kids from different backgrounds, is important. You’ll have to find some way to deal with it, because it’s not going to change.” Besides which, a lot of these unpopular opinions aren’t asking for any action at all. As far as I know, the guy objecting to the _Ghostbusters_ reboot isn’t asking other people not to go, he’s just stating why he won’t, and still people disagree with him. If you want to keep using the word “mansplaining”, I can’t stop you. But use it knowing that some people find it objectionable, don’t just say “no it isn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/90 "2016-07-07T05:08:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If men are depicted as being stupid, then men may believe that being stupid is all that society expects of them, or that the bar is set that low for them and that they don’t have to aim high for anything. :dubious: While I agree that commercials showing men as clueless doofuses are irritating and offensive, I have to wonder if they’re really that significant a factor in the overall “depiction” of men. The vast majority of authoritative, powerful, prestigious, competent, etc. people depicted in media, both factual and fictional, are still men, after all. [QUOTE=Velocity] Incidentally, I think that certain scenes from Pixar’s \*Brave \*were vicious in the way that they ridiculed men and boys. [/QUOTE] You mean, similar to the depiction of the nurse Maudie ridiculing women as dumb, timid and screamy? :dubious: I think one major reason that negative stereotypes of men loom large as an upsetting element in the public consciousness is that they’re literally so untraditional as to be shocking, so they tend to stick in the mind (which of course is why marketing companies put them in advertisements). Negative stereotypes of women, on the other hand, tend to just blend into the scenery. For example, when Cinderella’s stepmother and stepsisters are nasty and bitchy, it’s just accepted as part of the plot. But when Merida’s suitors are unattractive klutzes instead of charming princes, it startles people so much that it gets called “vicious” ridicule of “men and boys” in general. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/91 "2016-07-07T12:29:51Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What a strange OP title. IF it is true a significant amount of Feminists man-bash then the conclusion drawn in it is fucking obvious. IF it is not true that a significant amount of Feminists man-bash the person making the statement doesn’t really care about the Feminist Movement. > > It’s like some strange version of JAQing off. #NotAllFeminists This one came up on my facebook feed and what pretty much everyone but the guy who posted agreed was, the article does the same thing it accuses feminists of - paints them all with the same brush. I will say that I’m not fond of the current oppressed person stance of “if you are my ally, you have to sit there and listen to me and support what I say.” And yes #SomeFeminists do that, so do some BLM activists, and some trans activists, and pretty much anyone else. Civil rights is a dialog, and rights mean everyone is entitled to an opinion…the way to piss off your allies is to turn it into a lecture full of accusations against your allies’ group. But if I can advise guys, from my position as a feminist for - well, now thirty plus years - don’t emulate those people - even other feminists find them problematic. Or the ones that assume if you aren’t one of them, you are inherently not on their side. Enter into a dialog. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/92 "2016-07-07T13:18:19Z")
I would think that the vast majority of women that consider themselves Femists mean it in the sense of simply being for equal rights. How many of them are actual activists? As mentioned, the loudest people get most attention, although the minority, they are not ignored. They are the ones actually pushing change, making campaigns, getting laws and policies enacted. Brushing them off as ‘just a fringe’ neglects their influence on our society. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/93 "2016-07-07T13:47:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The writer linked in the OP just plainly ignores what is going on, and excuses Trump out of all people as being a **reaction** against that radicalization of the feminists; in reality that is not what most feminists go about. Sure. But reality isn’t the only factor in politics. (Sad but true). To explain Trump is not necessarily to excuse him. Noting that some feminists give him and his supporters ammunition to use politically is a legitimate strategic criticism. Don’t let them get away with their bullshit by giving them material to work with. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/94 "2016-07-07T13:49:33Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > #NotAllFeminists > > This one came up on my facebook feed and what pretty much everyone but the guy who posted agreed was, the article does the same thing it accuses feminists of - paints them all with the same brush… And there we have it. Feminists complained that women should not be painted with the same brush. Then a few of them did the same thing to men. Then men complained, and some painted all feminists with the same brush. Now the feminists are complaining. And round and round it goes. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/95 "2016-07-07T13:52:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: While I agree that commercials showing men as clueless doofuses are irritating and offensive, I have to wonder if they’re really that significant a factor in the overall “depiction” of men. The vast majority of authoritative, powerful, prestigious, competent, etc. people depicted in media, both factual and fictional, are still men, after all Perhaps, but that’s not an excuse. It’s not a numbers game. Even if portrayals of women as (insert negative stereotype) is rare, it’s still wrong. We should strive for zero. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/96 "2016-07-07T13:56:39Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Sexism is wrong no matter who the victim is but who the victim is has bearing on whether, in context, a certain behavior is sexism. That’s absurd. And, ironically, it is sexist. > [@](#): > > You seem to be in favor of equality. But “equality” from what perspective? The “I hit everybody in the face” sort of equality? Treating individuals equally in a gender-blind way here and now but within (and not examining or addressing) the societal context? Or saying “what are the forces in society that, whether by design or otherwise, perpetuate sexism in the form of people of different genders having _de facto_ different life options?” and then trying to neutralize those forces, even at the “cost” of taking gender into account and consequently treating individuals in ways that may not be, or at least may not look, equal? Could you simplify that please? Maybe with examples? I don’t get what you’re saying, and it’s better that you explain than I try, and fail, to figure it out. You seem determined to complicate things that aren’t that complicated. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/97 "2016-07-07T14:01:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The disagreement is about what constitutes “sexist attacks from feminists”, Okay. > [@](#): > > and for those things that are agreed are sexist, the disagreement is about how prevalent they are. I don’t think that matters much. If they aren’t very prevalent, that’s great, but they’re still wrong. One could say “they aren’t very prevalent so we shouldn’t worry so much about them,” but that’s different. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/98 "2016-07-07T14:05:11Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > There’s two things going on here. First, a bunch of people observed that there was this phenomenon going on wherein a bunch of people of a certain gender felt the need to condescendingly overexplain certain ideas, but only to an audience of a certain gender. Yes. That’s the first sexist part. > [@](#): > > Two is that they chose a name which contains a reference to the gender doing the condescending overexplaining, and is clearly designed to help someone encountering the word for the first time to understand it easily. So which aspect of this sexist? Both. Generalizing based on sex is sexist. Giving it a gendered name is sexist. It’s really not rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/99 "2016-07-07T14:08:26Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > So people are criticizing feminists for being aggressive and deliberately offensive (aka not acting like demure, submissive women)? No. They are criticizing PEOPLE for being JERKS. There was no attack on feminists, or women. Just people who act like jerks, in this case, jerks who happen to be talking about gender in a sexist, and therefore also hypocritical, way. And there was no mention whatsoever of asking them to be “demure.” That was bullshit you threw in. Did you even read the article? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/100 "2016-07-07T14:10:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay. > > I don’t think that matters much. If they aren’t very prevalent, that’s great, but they’re still wrong. One could say “they aren’t very prevalent so we shouldn’t worry so much about them,” but that’s different. “They aren’t very prevalent so we shouldn’t worry so much about them” is how I read many of the responses, such as **Kimstu’s**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=6)