# Feminists treat men badly. It’s bad for feminism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149 "2016-07-05T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/141 "2016-07-08T14:20:54Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That said, obviously that’s not what \*\*Hershele \*\* is suggesting. Obvious to me, at any rate. That’s probably true. However, too often the conversation basically says, “My group has been privileged for hundreds of years, and that privilege has helped me get to where I am today; the converse, the oppression your group has experienced for centuries, has held you back from getting where you could be today. So let’s declare blank slate, achieve instant equality, and not care about the past! If you say you’re due some sort of restitution, YOU’RE A SEXIST [or racist or whatever]!” It’s a nonsensical approach. Much better to recognize how past inequality affects today’s world, and offer restitution to those penalized by the legacy of inequality. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/142 "2016-07-08T14:26:10Z")
It’s also, consistently, the approach that has been used to rebuff any suggestion of remedies for past discrimination since literally immediately after the actual de jure discrimination was finally ended. Using the same argument now that’s been used every day since the non-privileged group was literal chattel ought to give us some pause. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/143 "2016-07-08T14:35:23Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This again. Calling that phenomenon out for what it is is not the same thing as “shutting down a conversation” unless you think a conversation is where a man gets to tell everybody what’s what. > > “Let me tell you what this book is all about.” > > “I wrote it. You do not have authority over the subject, and I do.” > > That’s not shutting down the conversation. That’s correcting the parameters of the conversation. And that’s totally reasonable. It’s an apt and humorous term in cases where it applies. However, it’s not apt in every situation. Sometimes it’s just a convenient bludgeon to dismiss someone when you no longer want to listen to him. The speaker has no way to rebut the term without digging himself deeper, so it’s a cheap but effective conversational trump. It’s sort of like the accusation “why do you always have to have the last word?” Perhaps true, perhaps not, but it’s an effective tactic for getting the last word. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/144 "2016-07-08T14:45:51Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > This is just shooting the messenger behavior. You don’t like that mansplaining is happening, so you attack those who point out that it’s happening. Wrong. You don’t know what I like or don’t like. You don’t speak for me. > [@](#): > > Your exaggerations and weak-ass _ad hominems_ aren’t helping your case. I am doing neither. > [@](#): > > Some people think, rightly in my estimation, that one of these is more common than the others, and deserves special consideration. It’s still sexism. > [@](#): > > I guess you _could_ if you really like making dumb arguments. But you know, if you really do think the term feminism is itself sexist, you should probably refrain from self-describing as a feminist. I didn’t say I made that argument, just that it could be made. I personally don’t think it’s worth talking about. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/145 "2016-07-08T14:53:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Unfortunately for you, this contradiction is central to the point. False. My personal view or past posting history are absolutely, completely irrelevant. I posted an article. Please discuss what you think of the article. What I think or have said has absolutely no bearing on what is in the article or whether it is true or legitimate or not. > [@](#): > > There are a lot of people who claim to support a trend toward equality, and believe that this claim is sufficient to excuse their spending all of their time attacking people who are actually working toward equality in that way. I don’t need an “excuse” to post something. Again, I am not here to prove anything to you about me, nor do I have to have certain qualifications to post something. Please read the article and comment on it, and stop talking about me. > [@](#): > > The OP’s question is, does a feminist’s broad-brush attack on men hurt the cause of feminism? Well, maybe, in a very small way it does. But the harm that these broad-brush attacks cause to feminism is vanishingly small compared to the harm caused by those who tear down activists under the guise of trying to help. I strongly disagree. And I, nor the article, are “tearing down” activists. We are trying to help. We are strengthening activism and protecting it from those who really do want to tear them down. > [@](#): > > There are some passages from [Letter from a Birmingham Jail](http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) that speak to this issue: I don’t think this speaks to the issue. I think King’s frequent admonishments for civil rights activists to hold the moral high ground, primarily through nonviolence, are a far better analogy. I am telling feminists not to engage in the same behavior they claim to deplore, or else they lose the moral high ground and are just hypocrites. > [@](#): > > So, sure, feminists occasionally acting like assholes to men? Yep, assholes come in every flavor, apologies for the mixed metaphor. But self-professed advocates of a cause of engage in the sort of behavior MLK decries above, behavior so similar to that you engage in in the OP and elsewhere? A lot more damaging. I don’t think you could be more wrong. A movement that can’t handle criticism within its own ranks by those who expect it to live up to its own principles is pretty weak and is going to get weaker. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/146 "2016-07-08T14:56:46Z")
A Martin Luther King quote that’s actually relevant: “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral; begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/147 "2016-07-08T15:00:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > A Martin Luther King quote that’s actually relevant: > > “The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral; begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” That had power coming from MLK Jr, talking to other protesters and Civil Rights advocates. It would have been different had it come from a white person, even from a white person in favor of Civil Rights. The messenger matters. It’s not everything, but it does matter when different kinds of people have been treated differently by society and culture for so long. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/148 "2016-07-08T15:01:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s probably true. However, too often the conversation basically says, “My group has been privileged for hundreds of years, and that privilege has helped me get to where I am today; the converse, the oppression your group has experienced for centuries, has held you back from getting where you could be today. So let’s declare blank slate, achieve instant equality, and not care about the past! If you say you’re due some sort of restitution, YOU’RE A SEXIST [or racist or whatever]!” > > It’s a nonsensical approach. Much better to recognize how past inequality affects today’s world, and offer restitution to those penalized by the legacy of inequality. The problem with that is there are perhaps hundreds of ways that people were privileged, or oppressed, for centuries, beyond sex or race. To try to fix every past injustice would become enormously complicated. To try to fix some, but not all, would involve ignoring injustice and introducing new injustices. And, of course, you’d have to try to quantify all the injustices and the remedy owed for each. It reaches a point of absurdity. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/149 "2016-07-08T15:05:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That had power coming from MLK Jr, talking to other protesters and Civil Rights advocates. > > It would have been different had it come from a white person, even from a white person in favor of Civil Rights. The messenger matters. It’s not everything, but it does matter when different kinds of people have been treated differently by society and culture for so long. I find that to be utter rubbish. The idea that a white person who preached nonviolence as part of the civil rights movement has less of a point than a black person makes no sense and is downright insulting. Does it mean white people can’t believe in non-violence? Does that mean white people can’t even quote King? Sure, people listened to King about civil rights more, but that’s to be expected? If that’s all you’re saying, fine. That said, you seem to miss the point. I’m making an analogy between the issue of non-violence and the issue of refraining from sexist attacks by feminists. If you think the messenger matters - and I still don’t - refer to the female-authored article I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/150 "2016-07-08T15:09:24Z")
We’re getting bogged down in a specific example that I grabbed from no research whatsoever when I was asked for an example. The point, as **LHoD** notes, is superficially identical behavior towards men and women isn’t going to do a lot to combat sexism in society. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/151 "2016-07-08T15:10:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t think you could be more wrong. A movement that can’t handle criticism within its own ranks by those who expect it to live up to its own principles is pretty weak and is going to get weaker. “Within its own ranks” is the problematic part. Nothing you’ve done on this board makes it appear that you’re within the ranks of feminism; merely claiming to be a feminist does not automatically make you “within the ranks” of feminists. A movement that rejects penny-ante-bullshit criticism from supposed allies who never show real support, instead spending all their time engaging in penny-ante-bullshit criticism, can be a pretty strong movement. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/152 "2016-07-08T15:11:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I find that to be utter rubbish. The idea that a white person who preached nonviolence as part of the civil rights movement has less of a point than a black person makes no sense and is downright insulting. Does it mean white people can’t believe in non-violence? Does that mean white people can’t even quote King? Of course not. It just means that the message is a lot less powerful, and will be perceived differently. I also believe that it’s incredibly arrogant for a white person to presume that they know more about the black experience of racism than a crowd of black people, or for a man to presume to know more about the female experience of sexism than a (online) crowd of women, and such arrogance will probably be received poorly. > [@](#): > > Sure, people listened to King about civil rights more, but that’s to be expected? If that’s all you’re saying, fine. > > That said, you seem to miss the point. I’m making an analogy between the issue of non-violence and the issue of refraining from sexist attacks by feminists. If you think the messenger matters - and I still don’t - refer to the female-authored article I posted. I do think the messenger matters. The argument matters more – and I find her argument not particularly compelling – I think she describes something that rarely occurs, and is not particularly significant when it does. If it’s a problem, it’s a little one. I think people who oppose feminism do so for misogynistic and ignorant reasons, in general, and not because at some point a feminist was obnoxious to them. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/153 "2016-07-08T15:22:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sure it is. That’s what returning stolen Nazi art is all about. If your grandfather took my grandfather’s artwork without compensation, and it’s still in your family, the answer is that I get to take the same artwork from you without compensation. > > It’s a perfectly reasonable approach to righting past wrongs, and should be applied more broadly. That’s not wronging me. If I have stolen goods, it’s okay to have it returned to its owners. And that supposes the original owners can prove their original ownership. But If your grandfather shot my grandfather’s horse, I have no right to shoot yours. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/154 "2016-07-08T15:28:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Within its own ranks” is the problematic part. Nothing you’ve done on this board makes it appear that you’re within the ranks of feminism; merely claiming to be a feminist does not automatically make you “within the ranks” of feminists. It doesn’t matter one bit if I’m “within the ranks” anyway. The messenger is completely irrelevant to the message. > [@](#): > > A movement that rejects penny-ante-bullshit criticism from supposed allies who never show real support, instead spending all their time engaging in penny-ante-bullshit criticism, can be a pretty strong movement. My criticisms, and those in the article, are valid. If you don’t think so, explain why. Stop trying to make excuses for ignoring them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/155 "2016-07-08T15:28:44Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > That’s not wronging me. If I have stolen goods, it’s okay to have it returned to its owners. And that supposes the original owners can prove their original ownership. > > But If your grandfather shot my grandfather’s horse, I have no right to shoot yours. Taking something you consider to be your property, without compensating you for it, is an injury. I agree that spiteful vengeance does nobody any good. But restitutive justice is a perfectly valid approach to justice. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/156 "2016-07-08T15:29:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t need an “excuse” to post something. Again, I am not here to prove anything to you about me, nor do I have to have certain qualifications to post something. Please read the article and comment on it, and stop talking about me. Very well. The argument proposed in the article is almost as weak as the one presented by the OP of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/157 "2016-07-08T15:31:02Z")
That said, collective guilt is even a bigger hunk of bullshit. You never punish a non-wrong doer for something done by others. Life is often unfair, maybe more often than not. Spreading the unfairness is not the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/158 "2016-07-08T15:31:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It doesn’t matter one bit if I’m “within the ranks” anyway. > > The messenger is completely irrelevant to the message. If “within the ranks” doesn’t matter, leave that bullshit out of your posts going forward. > [@](#): > > My criticisms, and those in the article, are valid. If you don’t think so, explain why. Stop trying to make excuses for ignoring them. I already have explained why it’s penny-ante bullshit. I’m making a different point, one that really bothers you and that you keep telling me to shut up about. Sorry, dude. The fact that your approach is harmful to feminism isn’t one I’ll shut up about. If you were genuinely worried about harming feminism, you’d spend a lot more time supporting feminism and a lot less time sniping from the sidelines while insisting that you be recognized as a feminist. You might think that going forward, your repeated claims that you’re a feminist will show us where you stand. In reality, going forward, your actions will show us where you stand. Will you start engaging in genuine support of feminist issues, or will you continue with this sort of petty irrelevant attacks on feminists? We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/159 "2016-07-08T15:32:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Taking something you consider to be your property, without compensating you for it, is an injury. > > I agree that spiteful vengeance does nobody any good. But restitutive justice is a perfectly valid approach to justice. Your example is fine. But I have much more difficulty with more nebulous concepts, such as your grandfather had an advantage, so now I get one over you. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/160 "2016-07-08T15:35:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course not. It just means that the message is a lot less powerful, and will be perceived differently. Should it be though? If a white man says “racism is wrong,” do you dismiss the idea that racism is wrong? > [@](#): > > I also believe that it’s incredibly arrogant for a white person to presume that they know more about the black experience of racism than a crowd of black people, Nobody is saying that though. > [@](#): > > or for a man to presume to know more about the female experience of sexism than a (online) crowd of women, and such arrogance will probably be received poorly. Nor that. > [@](#): > > I do think the messenger matters. If so, since you are male and I presume white, why are you here posting? Shouldn’t we dismiss your views too? > [@](#): > > The argument matters more The argument is ALL that matters. > [@](#): > > and I find her argument not particularly compelling – I think she describes something that rarely occurs, and is not particularly significant when it does. If it’s a problem, it’s a little one. Glad we’re finally back to discussing the issue. Are you sure you’re qualified to speak on this as a male? The author is female - are you arrogantly telling her you know more about the experience of women than she does? > [@](#): > > I think people who oppose feminism do so for misogynistic and ignorant reasons, Well, yeah. > [@](#): > > in general, and not because at some point a feminist was obnoxious to them. But many people who are attacked in a sexist way by feminists oppose the sexist attack, but not feminism. And those people may continue to support the ideals of feminism, but stop listening to or support those who attack, and become less enthusiastic or trustful of the movement as a whole. And that hurts feminism. Why is it so hard for people to simply say “yeah, sexism is wrong no matter who the victim is, and feminists are hypocrites if and when they are sexist” and go from there? If you think its just a small problem, fine. Just say that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=9)