# Feminists treat men badly. It’s bad for feminism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149 "2016-07-05T18:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/161 "2016-07-08T15:40:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If “within the ranks” doesn’t matter, leave that bullshit out of your posts going forward. I’m not the one who brought it up, and I’m the one who keeps saying it should be left out. The only reason I said it is because I don’t like it when people speak for me or lie about me, so I correct them. If you’re done talking about it, so am I. > [@](#): > > The fact that your approach is harmful to feminism isn’t one I’ll shut up about. If you were genuinely worried about harming feminism, you’d spend a lot more time supporting feminism and a lot less time sniping from the sidelines while insisting that you be recognized as a feminist. And you’re DOING IT AGAIN. You’re still talking about me. This is not about me. I am not here to prove anything to you. And your statement is completely illogical. What I say elsewhere has no bearing on whether my statements, or the article I posted, harms or helps feminism. > [@](#): > > You might think that going forward, your repeated claims that you’re a feminist will show us where you stand. In reality, going forward, your actions will show us where you stand. Will you start engaging in genuine support of feminist issues, or will you continue with this sort of petty irrelevant attacks on feminists? > > We’ll see. For God’s sake, could you stop deflecting and trying to make this about me and get back on topic? Read the article again. Discuss it. What do you think of the article? That is the topic, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/162 "2016-07-08T15:41:45Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Your example is fine. But I have much more difficulty with more nebulous concepts, such as your grandfather had an advantage, so now I get one over you. The connection needs to be a little stronger than that: your grandfather took something from my grandfather, enabling the accumulation of wealth and power at the expense of my grandfather. That wealth and power has been passed down through generations to you. At this point, maybe you should give a bit of that wealth and power back to me. It’s not that I should have an advantage over you; rather, some of the unearned advantage you have as a result of your grandfather’s misdeeds should be given to me. You should, in other words, give up a bit of your unearned advantage over me ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/163 "2016-07-08T15:42:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Read the article again. Discuss it. What do you think of the article? That is the topic, not me. I’ve discussed that. It’s penny-ante bullshit. It’s not worth much discussion, unless you’re interested in dragging down feminism as a whole. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/164 "2016-07-08T15:51:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Should it be though? > > If a white man says “racism is wrong,” do you dismiss the idea that racism is wrong? “Racism is wrong” is a platitude. It’s step 2 that’s the hard part. When a white dude who’s literally never been discriminated against in his life – say, me – says “racism is wrong and here’s what we should do about it,” that ain’t the same thing as when Martin Luther King says what we should do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/165 "2016-07-08T15:52:42Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > “Racism is wrong” is a platitude. It’s step 2 that’s the hard part. When a white dude who’s literally never been discriminated against in his life – say, me – says “racism is wrong and here’s what we should do about it,” that ain’t the same thing as when Martin Luther King says what we should do about it. And especially when a white dude’s entire conversation about racism is like, “I’m the least racist person you know, but black lives matter is totally missing the point, you should all be talking about how all lives matter, and maybe you need to focus on black-on-black crime, why aren’t black leaders talking about that, and where are the black fathers?” it’s a little hard to take that white dude seriously. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/166 "2016-07-08T15:56:22Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If so, since you are male and I presume white, why are you here posting? Shouldn’t we dismiss your views too? When have I suggested anyone’s views be dismissed? > [@](#): > > Glad we’re finally back to discussing the issue. Are you sure you’re qualified to speak on this as a male? The author is female - are you arrogantly telling her you know more about the experience of women than she does? I’m not qualified to have my opinion about sexism against women be equal to that of a woman. I take my cues on this from women, and the vast majority of the women I’ve spoken to on this issue feel differently than the article you linked. > [@](#): > > But many people who are attacked in a sexist way by feminists oppose the sexist attack, but not feminism. > > And those people may continue to support the ideals of feminism, but stop listening to or support those who attack, and become less enthusiastic or trustful of the movement as a whole. And that hurts feminism. > > Why is it so hard for people to simply say “yeah, sexism is wrong no matter who the victim is, and feminists are hypocrites if and when they are sexist” and go from there? If you think its just a small problem, fine. Just say that. We’ve said equivalent things to this many times. Sexism is always wrong, and sexism against women is a major problem in our society. Sexism against men is not a major problem in our society – it’s a miniscule problem. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/167 "2016-07-08T15:59:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And especially when a white dude’s entire conversation about racism is like, “I’m the least racist person you know, but black lives matter is totally missing the point, you should all be talking about how all lives matter, and maybe you need to focus on black-on-black crime, why aren’t black leaders talking about that, and where are the black fathers?” it’s a little hard to take that white dude seriously. Whenever I hear anyone say “I’m the least racist person you know”, or anything like that, I strongly suspect that they have very little understanding of racism. Even “I’m not racist”. One of the biggest things about racism is that very few people with racist views actually know that their views are racist. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/168 "2016-07-08T16:15:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve discussed that. It’s penny-ante bullshit. It’s not worth much discussion, Fine, then you’re done here. > [@](#): > > unless you’re interested in dragging down feminism as a whole. Are you? You don’t get to tell me that discussing it further means I want to drag down feminism. Haven’t you figured out that I’m immune to that kind of crap yet? If you have nothing more to say, fine. I’ll discuss it with others if they care to comment further. Thanks for your contribution. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/169 "2016-07-08T16:17:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whenever I hear anyone say “I’m the least racist person you know”, or anything like that, I strongly suspect that they have very little understanding of racism. Even “I’m not racist”. One of the biggest things about racism is that very few people with racist views actually know that their views are racist. Are you racist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/170 "2016-07-08T16:18:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Are you racist? I hope not. I strive to not say or do racist things, and challenge those racist actions and words that I see others say or do. In the past I have said racist things, and failed to challenge the racist words of others, and I’m very regretful for having done so. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/171 "2016-07-08T16:21:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not qualified to have my opinion about sexism against women be equal to that of a woman. I take my cues on this from women, and the vast majority of the women I’ve spoken to on this issue feel differently than the article you linked. That’s absurd. Sexism is not just about women. It’s an objective issue that anyone can discuss and have an opinion about. Now, if you’re talking about the experiences of women with sexism, that’s a case where women’s opinions would matter more, for obvious reasons. But that’s a different issue. I’m not sure why your brought it up, because I’m not claiming to know something about women’s experiences, or does this article (and the article is by a woman anyway). > [@](#): > > We’ve said equivalent things to this many times. Sexism is always wrong, and sexism against women is a major problem in our society. Sexism against men is not a major problem in our society – it’s a miniscule problem. Sure. But my problem is that people feel the need to say MORE than that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/172 "2016-07-08T16:24:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I hope not. I strive to not say or do racist things, and challenge those racist actions and words that I see others say or do. In the past I have said racist things, and failed to challenge the racist words of others, and I’m very regretful for having done so. Okay, but that’s about your behavior. What about your personal beliefs? Do you believe racism is wrong? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/173 "2016-07-08T16:27:09Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > “Racism is wrong” is a platitude. It’s step 2 that’s the hard part. When a white dude who’s literally never been discriminated against in his life – say, me – says “racism is wrong and here’s what we should do about it,” that ain’t the same thing as when Martin Luther King says what we should do about it. Not even when he says the exact same thing that Martin Luther King says? How can that be? Also, was MLK always right about everything? You haven’t, or feel you can’t, disagree with him about anything at all? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/174 "2016-07-08T16:27:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Fine, then you’re done here. 😕 No I’m not. I think it’s a tremendously worthy discussion, whether folks who engage in this sort of silly snipery are allies or impediments to justice, and I’ll continue having the conversation. Nice try at silencing me, though! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/175 "2016-07-08T16:28:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, but that’s about your behavior. What about your personal beliefs? Do you believe racism is wrong? Why are you making it about him instead of the article in the OP? Consistency is your friend! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/176 "2016-07-08T16:29:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, but that’s about your behavior. What about your personal beliefs? Do you believe racism is wrong? Do you really need to ask me that? Yes, obviously. And I will look askance at any white person who tries to start a conversation about anti-white racism, and be unlikely to believe that they are actually interested in stopping racism, and more likely to believe that they are more interested in putting down black people or advocating for white supremacy. Because, in my experience, the vast, vast majority of white people who have tried to start conversations about anti-white racism have been white supremacists, of one flavor or another. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/177 "2016-07-08T16:30:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Read the article again. Discuss it. What do you think of the article? That is the topic, not me. Sure. The article is mostly a bunch of cloudy clickbait buttwaffle. It brings up a few instances of anti-male prejudice and disparagement that we all agree are bad, complains about a few other things that it’s misrepresenting as anti-male when they’re actually not, dumps in a heaping truckload of vague generalizations, and claims that the whole thing adds up to the sweeping assertion that “Feminists Treat Men Badly”. If one of my freshman students turned in a paper that was so poorly argued, they’d be lucky to scrape by with a C. Here are some of the floating non-attributions that the article author invokes to support her sweeping generalizations: “a lot of feminist rhetoric today”, “the fixation on men behaving badly”, “This tendency has reached a troubling new peak”, “the current cycle of misandry”, “Feminist commentary routinely puts the nastiest possible spin on male behavior and motives”, “casual low-level male-bashing is a constant white noise”, etc. Does the author have any actual data or studies backing up these broad assertions? Nope, all she’s got is a few anecdotes about stuff that bothers her on the Internet, some of which she isn’t even representing accurately. (For example, her accusation that a pro-singlehood article by Laurie Penny is comparable to misogynist “Men Going Their Own Way” bitterness in “manosphere” conversations completely overlooks the fact that Penny makes the point that she’s **not** currently single, and is **not** dismissing the existence of good men or the rewards of good relationships: she’s just discussing ways in which a traditionally sexist culture places disproportionate relationship burdens on women.) In short, as **LHOD** said: penny-ante bullshit. Mind you, this is not in any way to argue that **specific** instances of misandry or male-bashing shouldn’t be called out. If the author had titled her article “Some Instances of Self-Identified Feminists Saying Things That Are Derogatory to Men”, and devoted the article to describing and explaining the problems with those specific instances, I doubt anybody here would be disagreeing with that. But sprinkling a few such instances over a big bowl of unsupported qualifiers like “a lot”, “many”, “constant”, “generally”, “routinely”, and then trying to claim that it all implies that “Feminists Treat Men Badly”? Cloudy clickbait buttwaffle. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/178 "2016-07-08T16:31:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 😕 No I’m not. I think it’s a tremendously worthy discussion, whether folks who engage in this sort of silly snipery are allies or impediments to justice, and I’ll continue having the conversation. Nice try at silencing me, though! 🙂 You’re the one who said you already told me what you think. I think you’re the one who is an impediment to justice, but I’m only saying that because you seem to think you can talk about me the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/179 "2016-07-08T16:33:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Nice article about how crude man-bashing is becoming a habit among some feminists and why it’s not only hypocritical but also bad for the movement. Same goes for the anti-racism movement and any other social justice movements. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/?tid=pm\_opinions\_pop\_b](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/?tid=pm_opinions_pop_b) The examples given in the column aren’t examples of men being bashed for being men. They are examples of men being mocked for being stupid (or vulgar or whiney). There is no universal right not to be mocked. One should probably expect to be mocked if one is being stupid, vulgar, or whiney in public. Look, if you don’t want to be mocked for saying something stupid, don’t say something stupid, or text a picture of your genitalia to a stranger, or interrupt an expert in the field to voice your shallow understanding of her field of expertise. The fact that people have not been pointing out your dumb behavior in the past doesn’t mean you haven’t been being dumb. It means you’ve been wrong all along and no one has pointed it out to you before. That _still_ doesn’t make you the injured party. Just to be clear, “you” is a generic “you” and these generalizations could apply to any human being and also some cats. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149/180 "2016-07-08T16:35:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure. The article is mostly a bunch of cloudy clickbait buttwaffle. It brings up a few instances of anti-male prejudice and disparagement that we all agree are bad, complains about a few other things that it’s misrepresenting as anti-male when they’re actually not, dumps in a heaping truckload of vague generalizations, and claims that the whole thing adds up to the sweeping assertion that “Feminists Treat Men Badly”. > > If one of my freshman students turned in a paper that was so poorly argued, they’d be lucky to scrape by with a C. > > Here are some of the floating non-attributions that the article author invokes to support her sweeping generalizations: “a lot of feminist rhetoric today”, “the fixation on men behaving badly”, “This tendency has reached a troubling new peak”, “the current cycle of misandry”, “Feminist commentary routinely puts the nastiest possible spin on male behavior and motives”, “casual low-level male-bashing is a constant white noise”, etc. > > Does the author have any actual data or studies backing up these broad assertions? Nope, all she’s got is a few anecdotes about stuff that bothers her on the Internet, some of which she isn’t even representing accurately. (For example, her accusation that a pro-singlehood article by Laurie Penny is comparable to misogynist “Men Going Their Own Way” bitterness in “manosphere” conversations completely overlooks the fact that Penny makes the point that she’s **not** currently single, and is **not** dismissing the existence of good men or the rewards of good relationships: she’s just discussing ways in which a traditionally sexist culture places disproportionate relationship burdens on women.) > > In short, as **LHOD** said: penny-ante bullshit. > > Mind you, this is not in any way to argue that **specific** instances of misandry or male-bashing shouldn’t be called out. If the author had titled her article “Some Instances of Self-Identified Feminists Saying Things That Are Derogatory to Men”, and devoted the article to describing and explaining the problems with those specific instances, I doubt anybody here would be disagreeing with that. > > But sprinkling a few such instances over a big bowl of unsupported qualifiers like “a lot”, “many”, “constant”, “generally”, “routinely”, and then trying to claim that it all implies that “Feminists Treat Men Badly”? Cloudy clickbait buttwaffle. I’d say that you need to get out more and actually see this stuff happening, because it is happening. It’s real. She never claimed it was a “study” or a college paper. It’s an opinion column, just like your response. It’s sad that you just dismiss problems instead of discussing them, but at least you’re back on topic. But hey, can you at least agree that IF these things were happening, they’d be wrong and counterproductive? Or is that too much? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feminists-treat-men-badly-it-s-bad-for-feminism/759149.md?page=10)