# Femme Queer, Butch Queer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264 "2005-07-26T17:57:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/61 "2005-10-04T17:32:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Yeah, **matt** , that’s what really frosts my cakes… Butch-on-butch relationships, or femme-on-femme, are looked down on? So only butch-on-femme is considered normative? I have a hard time seeing this as anything but an insidious touch of heterosexualism intruding into the queer world where it doesn’t belong. Do you mean in the sense of pressure from outsiders or in the sense of queer folks being unable to rid themselves of the prejudices they were taught growing up? I’ve found the latter to be a problem in any subculture. > [@](#): > > As for Renaissance lesbianism, it was for real. I can’t recall was the term ‘tribadian’ coined then or later? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/62 "2005-10-04T18:39:00Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > So only butch-on-femme is considered normative? I have a hard time seeing this as anything but an insidious touch of heterosexualism intruding into the queer world where it doesn’t belong. This sounds a bit like backlash to me. I personally identify with the angle of queer culture that celebrates diversity. There’s room for everything, and if that is truly the case, there is no need to go around accusing anyone of not belonging, being insufficiently enlightened and just perpetrating heterosexual paradigms. Also, in my experience, butch/femme pairings are far from being considered normative nor the majority of lesbian relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/63 "2005-10-04T23:28:14Z")
> [@honeydewgrrl](#): > > This sounds a bit like backlash to me. > > I personally identify with the angle of queer culture that celebrates diversity. There’s room for everything, and if that is truly the case, there is no need to go around accusing anyone of not belonging, being insufficiently enlightened and just perpetrating heterosexual paradigms. A paradox. For us to be truly diverse, we must include what contradicts our identity. > [@](#): > > Also, in my experience, butch/femme pairings are far from being considered normative nor the majority of lesbian relationships. In my experience too. Seems like one of those things people talk about a lot more than they actually do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/64 "2005-10-05T00:14:13Z")
Incidentally, whenever I think of this thread, I think the title is “Femme Butch, Queer Butch,” and then it takes me a minute to remember why that would make no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/65 "2005-10-05T08:27:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Incidentally, whenever I think of this thread, I think the title is “Femme Butch, Queer Butch,” and then it takes me a minute to remember why that would make no sense. Because it would be harder to find rhymes for? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/66 "2005-10-05T10:02:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Incidentally, whenever I think of this thread, I think the title is “Femme Butch, Queer Butch,” and then it takes me a minute to remember why that would make no sense. If you think that “femme butch” makes no sense, you’ve never been to Stud for Sunday '70s Teadance. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264/67 "2005-10-05T14:17:45Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Do you mean in the sense of pressure from outsiders or in the sense of queer folks being unable to rid themselves of the prejudices they were taught growing up? I’ve found the latter to be a problem in any subculture. I meant the latter. Yes, I thought of comparing it to _Black Faces, White Masks_, that sort of thing. > [@](#): > > I can’t recall was the term ‘tribadian’ coined then or later? Yes, **Doc Cathode** , it dates from the 16th century. The earliest reference to “tribadism” cited by Faderman was by Pierre de Bourdeille, Seigneur de Brantôme (1540-1614), a work titled _Lives of Fair and Gallant Ladies_. The term “tribadism” specifically refers to bumping pussy rather than using a dildo. The distinction was important to phallocentric male writers like Brantôme who thought dildos should not replace men. Another reference cited by Faderman: François Mainard (1582-1646) wrote “Tribades seu Lesbia,” in which he tells “beautiful Phyllis” that if her finger knew how to urinate along with what else it knows, it could could pass for something unmentionable. This goes to show Faderman’s point, which was that literary lesbianism in that period had to exist in a “phallocentric universe.” One euphemism used by Brantôme was the Italian phrase “_donna con donna_.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/femme-queer-butch-queer/314264.md?page=3)