# Fenris, admit you are wrong about alcoholism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460 "2003-04-27T07:01:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/1 "2003-04-27T07:01:39Z")
Fenris said in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3338044#post3338044)thread > [@](#): > > And as for alcohol being “physically addictive”, it’s certainly psychologically addictive (which does NOT diminish the power of the addiction), but physically? Bull. In that thread, you flat out stated that alcohol is not a physically addictive drug. That is pure bullshit, and you should admit you are wrong. While I sometimes enjoy your wit, to make such a flat out wrong statement demands a retraction. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/2 "2003-04-27T07:17:02Z")
So he should admit he’s wrong just because you say he is? ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/3 "2003-04-27T07:18:19Z")
Or because there’s a plethora of documented evidence proving its true… (no, I will NOT cite, do your own damn research!) ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/4 "2003-04-27T07:24:16Z")
If you want cites, I will provide a shitload, be back in a few. Of course, i thought everyone knew this…duh, but if it’s cites you want cites you will get. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/5 "2003-04-27T07:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Morrigoon \* > \*\*Or because there’s a plethora of documented evidence proving its true…(no, I will NOT cite, do your own damn research!) \*\* And the Moon is made of green cheese and the Earth is flat. No I will not cite do your own damn research.:rolleyes: If you make a claim **Morrigoon** , don’t make us back it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/6 "2003-04-27T07:28:59Z")
Perhaps such a statement as the one **Fenris** made ought to have been backed up with its own cite(s), but if you’re going to go to the trouble of calling him out in the Pit, you should have your own notes in order. Don’t want it to backfire, after all. But hey, what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/7 "2003-04-27T07:29:36Z")
Serious alcohol withdrawl symptoms, including [delerium tremens](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000764.htm) are well documented. ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/8 "2003-04-27T07:29:43Z")
Those who don’t think it’s physically addictive–haven’t you ever heard of DTs? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/9 "2003-04-27T07:50:52Z")
Hello, my name is Marc and I’m an- Oops, wrong thread. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/10 "2003-04-27T07:53:09Z")
[Read](http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=00092B25-77ED-1C71-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3) the last paragragh. [cite](http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/faq/q-a.htm#question1) [again](http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0856547.html) last paragraph. [more](http://scc.uchicago.edu/alcoholdependence.htm) Get real, I could go on for days, alcohol is a physically addictive drug, you can’t dispute it. **Fenris** should know this. ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/11 "2003-04-27T07:56:36Z")
[Here’s a damn cite.](http://familydoctor.org/handouts/007.html) > [@](#): > > Alcohol withdrawal syndrome is a set of symptoms that people have when they suddenly stop drinking after using alcohol for a long period of time. Some people have mild shakiness and sweats. Some people hallucinate (hear and see things that don’t exist). The worst form of withdrawal is called “DTs” (delirium tremens). DTs can be very serious if not treated by a doctor. > > Withdrawal symptoms rarely occur in people who only drink once in a while. Symptoms usually occur in people who have been drinking heavily for weeks or months and then suddenly stop drinking. People who have gone through withdrawal before are more likely to have withdrawal symptoms each time they quit drinking. I didn’t cite earlier because I was cooking and couldn’t dedicate any time to research. Silly me, the medical evidence is so prevalent that it took me a whopping 15 seconds to find it. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/12 "2003-04-27T08:01:46Z")
Morrigoon, why could those symptons not be explained by the “psychological addiction” that Fenris noted? ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/13 "2003-04-27T08:09:38Z")
Do people have delirium tremens when withdrawing from other psychological addictions? ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/14 "2003-04-27T08:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Delirium tremens (DT) is a **potentially fatal** form of ethanol (alcohol) withdrawal. (bolding mine) [http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic123.htm](http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic123.htm) So not only is it physically addictive, it can be _profoundly_ physically addictive. I’d have a hard time believing that a psychological withdrawal could manifest itself in such a profound manner; furthermore, from the same link: > [@](#): > > Pathophysiology: DT is caused by the direct effect that ethanol has on the benzodiazepine-GABAa-chloride receptor complex. Persistent effects of ethanol lead to the down-regulation of the receptor complex. When ethanol is withdrawn, a functional decrease in the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA is seen. This results in an unopposed increase in sympathetic activity with a resultant increase in plasma and urinary catecholamines. Ethanol also acts as an N-methyl D-aspartate receptor antagonist. Withdrawal of ethanol leads to increased activity of these excitatory neural receptors. Now I don’t pretend to understand the meaning of all that, but it sounds physical to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/15 "2003-04-27T08:17:28Z")
From [http://www.addictionwithdrawal.com/alcohol.htm:](http://www.addictionwithdrawal.com/alcohol.htm:) > [@](#): > > Physical addiction to alcohol occurs in consistently heavy drinkers. Since their bodies have adapted to the presence of alcohol, they suffer alcohol Withdrawal if they suddenly stop drinking. Alcohol Withdrawal symptoms range from jumpiness, sleeplessness, sweating, and poor appetite, to tremors (the “shakes”), convulsions, hallucinations, and sometimes death. > > Alcohol Withdrawal symptoms include but are not limited to: > > Sweating or Rapid Pulse > Increased Hand Tremor > Insomnia > Nausea or Vomiting > Physical Agitation > Anxiety > Transient Visual, Tactile or Auditory Hallucinations or > Illusions > Grand Mal Seizures From [http://self-renewal.com/alcohol%20addiction.htm:](http://self-renewal.com/alcohol%20addiction.htm:) > [@](#): > > Medical research shows two major causes of physical addiction. (1) Your cells adapt to alcohol; and (2) your body has a problem with alcohol metabolism. > > Adaptation in the cells. To your cells, alcohol becomes a way of life. Your blood bathes every cell in alcohol on a fairly regular schedule. Your cells adjust. They grow to expect these doses on time. > [@](#): > > Your cells show signs of physical addiction another way. They crave alcohol as a food. Alcohol converts almost instantly to glucose in the blood. Known as blood-sugar, the body uses this as food for all the cells. When you drink alcohol, like eating a candy bar or drinking a soda, the cells get a quick burst of energy. This energy, as you may know, is measured in “calories.” > > Alcoholic beverages pack a lot of calories. Five to ten drinks provide the same amount of calories as a well-balanced meal. But the meal, of course, would have provided essential vitamins, minerals, proteins (amino acids), fats, fiber, and the complex carbohydrates—all of which the body needs to stay healthy. Unfortunately, the simple carbohydrates of alcohol satisfy the hunger too well. And, when you drink a lot, you usually don’t feel like eating a meal, balanced or not. > [@](#): > > Your cells adapt another way. They grow to crave alcohol for the sedation. Alcohol sedates all of your cells. Also, secondary compounds called isoquinolines form in the brain where they cause heroin-like sedation of the brain and nervous system. That’s why, among all the cells, nerve cells react most violently whenever alcohol is taken away. You’ll see anything from shaking hands and nervous irritability, to convulsive seizures. Read further on the site to learn the effects in detail. Regardless, there _is_ a physical addiction. To suggest that there isn’t without research is insulting to those who are recovering alcoholics. It is a hard road, and one that is dealt with for the rest of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/16 "2003-04-27T08:18:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drastic \* > \*\*Do people have delirium tremens when withdrawing from other psychological addictions? \*\* I don’t think that the DTs are ever experienced from a psychological addiction. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/17 "2003-04-27T08:26:19Z")
That sure settles that. Always just casually accepted the common wisdom that alcoholism was an addiction with serious physiological components, but not details. Details gained, ignorance fought, thank you come again. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/18 "2003-04-27T08:28:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drastic \* > \*\*Do people have delirium tremens when withdrawing from other psychological addictions? \*\* Cannabis addiction is generally accepted to be psychological, [yet](http://www.mydr.com.au/default.asp?article=2919): > [@](#): > > Abrupt termination of cannabis use can produce a mild withdrawal syndrome. Symptoms include sleep disturbance, irritability, loss of appetite and consequent weight loss, nervousness, anxiety, sweating and upset stomach. Sometimes chills, increased body temperature and **tremors** occur. The withdrawal syndrome usually lasts for less than a week, although the sleep disturbances may persist for a longer period. I must admit that I’m surprised **Fenris** is claiming alcoholism is psychological, but I’d be interested to see some more research. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/19 "2003-04-27T10:20:52Z")
cites. [sub]Well Isn’t that what you told me to do?[/sub] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460/20 "2003-04-27T10:45:01Z")
Note: I have merged “Reply with cites” thread into this one, which explains **Mycroft Holmes’** post. Lynn [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fenris-admit-you-are-wrong-about-alcoholism/171460.md?page=2)