# Ferguson 2015 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504 "2015-08-11T00:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/41 "2015-08-13T18:18:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Maybe not the OP, but your use of the smilie in this post makes it appear that you’ve definitely taken a side. That is ridiculous. Why don’t you explain exactly how my questioning why he believes the police unquestioningly and does not weight anyone else’s account at all indicates that I’ve taken a side (or whatever it is that you think I indicated there). **FuriousGeorge** , I notice, hasn’t been back to explain what he read in that scant OP that he thinks indicates my position; why don’t you take a crack at it? If it’s there, and you can see it as clearly as you say, you should be able to articulate just fine on what you see. Go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/42 "2015-08-13T18:29:36Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Me too but I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Every situation like this I would think that the observer would try to make a decision on who is at fault. > > I happen to believe the guy shot was at fault. More evidence later could prove me wrong but from the information I have now I have to go with what I know. > > It seems to me that any cop would be nuts to try and gun down an unarmed man in Ferguson while media and cell cameras were everywhere. In fact I would expect a cop to possibly unnecessarily hesitate discharging his gun because he knows what happened to the life and career of the cop who started this whole mess one year ago. > > **Snowborder Bo** , just quit mucking about, dodging and weaving. Go ahead and state an opinion. The people on the street are definitely of the opinion that police violence is unwarranted. People on this board also agree with that. > > Get off he fence. Unless you like what the picket is doing to your “special” spot. My OP wasn’t meant to talk about just this shooting; it was, as the title indicates, about all the things going on in Ferguson lately, and how they relate to what happened last year. As such, my only position in the whole thing is “this is a fucked up situation a year after we all found out it was a fucked up situation in the first place; how long will it continue to be fucked up?” As such, I appear on the fence here because I don’t know enough about this incident to have an opinion about it. I do have enough information, however, to feel that anyone who does have an opinion about it has jumped to conclusions and not given equal weight and consideration to information that might contradict what they’ve already decided, like **Frank** has. He dismissed any account of what transpired immediately, without reason, and accepted the police version unquestioningly. And then, when I asked him why, a bunch of y’all decided that _I_ was the one showing bias, even tho no one has yet articulated exactly what I said that they think indicated I have “taken a side”. That is shitty, shitty reasoning and knee-jerk reactions, folks, not logic or evaluating the facts. I’ve been a strident foe of bad policing practices on this board, and a vocal supporter of good policing practices. I am not anti-cop; I’m anti-bad-cop, and Ferguson, for sure, has some bad cops. Is this an example of one? I dunno; eventually I hope we’ll find out for sure. But to give consideration only to one side of the story, like **Frank** did, is stupid, ignorant and, depending on motivation, possibly evil and yeah, I’ll call people out on that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/43 "2015-08-13T18:30:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think thats unfair. If you read that into the OP, it’s probably more your fault than his. Thanks, **John**. I appreciate the corroborating viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/44 "2015-08-13T19:40:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thanks, **John**. I appreciate the corroborating viewpoint. So far you got one person agreeing with you, and six (counting me) who got the opposite impression. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/45 "2015-08-13T21:04:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thanks, **John**. I appreciate the corroborating viewpoint. > [@Shodan](#): > > So far you got one person agreeing with you, and six (counting me) who got the opposite impression. > > Regards, > Shodan When I first read the OP, I thought he was agreeing with the father, too. But that was based on my knowledge of that poster, and not what he had actually written in the OP. Going back and re-reading it made me realize I was reading more into it than was actually there. I suspected it might be the same for other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/46 "2015-08-13T21:14:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So far you got one person agreeing with you, and six (counting me) who got the opposite impression. > > Regards, > Shodan Make it two. I would have worded the OP differently but I read it as “Is this going to be seen as a bad shoot by the police and cause the situation to get much worse” or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/47 "2015-08-13T21:25:11Z")
Three, if we’re counting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/48 "2015-08-13T23:43:18Z")
Three plus **Shodan** equals two. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/49 "2015-08-14T00:06:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Tell that to Oakland. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Oakland provides relatively cheap housing with convenient commuter access to the wonders of San Francisco. Ferguson provides even cheaper housing with convenient commuter access to … well, St. Louis. > > They’re doomed. As an Oakland resident, I hate to point out that you’re both wrong. No yearly riots (every 2 years, maybe, but we were remarkably well behaved when the Warriors won this year), and damn sure no relatively cheap housing anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/50 "2015-08-14T00:13:03Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > As an Oakland resident, I hate to point out that you’re both wrong. No yearly riots (every 2 years, maybe, but we were remarkably well behaved when the Warriors won this year), and damn sure no relatively cheap housing anymore. [170 people arrested in three nights of Oakland demonstrations over Ferguson killing](http://www.contracostatimes.com/contra-costa-times/ci_27024770/170-people-arrested-three-nights-oakland-demonstrations-over) > [@](#): > > Oakland police say 35 people were arrested late Wednesday at the third consecutive night of protests over a Missouri grand jury’s decision not to charge a white police officer with killing a black teenager. > > That brought the total number of people arrested on various charges during this week’s Oakland protests to 170. > > … > > Among the vandalism that could be seen Thursday morning, the facade of a U.S. Postal Service office on West Grand Avenue had anti-law enforcement slogans like “Kill Cops.” The Oakland Tribune office at the corner of Broadway at 20th Street was graffitied and largely boarded up from window smashing that the newspaper caught on video. This was in November of 2014. Hasn’t even been a year yet. Actually, this was in May 2015: [A week after riot, Oakland Auto Row still trashed](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/A-week-after-riot-Oakland-Auto-Row-still-trashed-6252238.php) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/51 "2015-08-14T01:18:37Z")
170 people arrested, three nights of mayhem, a “riot”? In Oakland? Shit, that’s a toga party. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/52 "2015-08-14T02:13:01Z")
Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/53 "2015-08-14T02:28:17Z")
True - Oakland can do better (worse) than that. Oakland is still a shithole though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/54 "2015-08-14T02:51:12Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > This week signals the death of Ferguson as any kind of a viable city. > > Any meaningful business is going to flee this area and with it will go any homeowners who who value their property. > > Why would anyone want to live in an area that has a “riot festival” once a year? And the really sad part of this is that the people of Ferguson are the innocent victims of the violence. Last year, when hundreds were locked up during the riots, exactly two of them turned out to be citizens of Ferguson. Harris is from St. Louis, not Ferguson. The gangs having a shootout were probably not from Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/55 "2015-08-14T03:57:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > **FuriousGeorge** , I notice, hasn’t been back to explain what he read in that scant OP that he thinks indicates my position; why don’t you take a crack at it? If it’s there, and you can see it as clearly as you say, you should be able to articulate just fine on what you see. Go for it. Well, fucktard, if you had managed to read the very next fucking post, you might’ve noticed I came right back to ask a couple of clarifying questions. Perhaps you were too busy at the quarry, throwing shitty catchphrases down it like a Chinese knock-off of Bart Simpson to have a look. Short of that, I can simply just +1 and “Me too” pretty much every post by **Frank** in this thread to explain my process. But that would be **Guin** -like and a complete waste of time because you didn’t get it the first time and don’t strike me as sharp enough to pick it up on a second pass. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/56 "2015-08-14T08:57:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But to give consideration only to one side of the story, like **Frank** did, is stupid, ignorant and, depending on motivation, possibly evil and yeah, I’ll call people out on that. This is where a “bemused” smiley would come in handy. See, in order to believe the father’s statement that the police story was “a bunch of lies,” you have to both assume that the father was there and knows what he is talking about and that the police story was a bunch of lies. So far, all evidence that has come out shows that the police story is true. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/57 "2015-08-14T15:39:43Z")
Even if we were to prove, beyond question, that the vast majority of police shootings were justifiable, are we then satisfied? Is there an agreed upon ratio? If it turned out to be 80/20, would we then be obliged to shrug it off as simply the unfortunate cost of law enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/58 "2015-08-14T15:49:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Even if we were to prove, beyond question, that the vast majority of police shootings were justifiable, are we then satisfied? Is there an agreed upon ratio? If it turned out to be 80/20, would we then be obliged to shrug it off as simply the unfortunate cost of law enforcement? Like the unfortunate cost of transportation? How many highway deaths is acceptable? None really. But we don’t stop driving. We just try to do a better job of making the highways safer. And we don’t stop arming police. We should try to insure that the police are as well trained and right minded as possible. Recent events have shown that may not be happening. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/59 "2015-08-14T16:33:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Even if we were to prove, beyond question, that the vast majority of police shootings were justifiable, are we then satisfied? Is there an agreed upon ratio? If it turned out to be 80/20, would we then be obliged to shrug it off as simply the unfortunate cost of law enforcement? Of course not. I don’t think I’ve said anything to give that impression. The fact is, well, my opinion is, that even with early evidence, this one appeared to be justified. With more evidence, it still does, though if anything comes out to show different, I’ll certainly rethink. My default position is not to believe all police shootings unjustified until proven otherwise. Sorry if that ticks off people who are otherwise on my side of the political divide. My “Usual Suspects” membership card didn’t come with a key to turn off my brain. Nor is my default position to believe that they all are justified. I look at the evidence, such as it may be, and allow my position to be swayed by what the evidence is. If this position causes chuckleheads to call me stupid, ignorant, and evil, I’m not sure why I should care. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504/60 "2015-08-14T17:46:54Z")
Good, you don’t accept either of two perfectly ridiculous positions. (By the way, my question follows yours in order, but was not intended as a direct reference, should have been clearer about that. Though it _seems_ to me as if some in this discussion were trying to rebut one of the perfectly ridiculous positions by insisting that we acknowledge that some police shootings were entirely justified, so there! I emphasize “seems” to acknowledge that this is not a researched opinion, but a sense of an argument(s), my “take”, if you will.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-2015/727504.md?page=4)