# Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596 "2014-11-25T15:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/181 "2014-11-27T16:29:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > One more time: what is the significance of the distance of the shooting from the police car? > > If the shooting was closer to the SUV (as first reported), does that make it more or less likely that Wilson acted unjustifiably? Why? > > If the shooting was further away from the SUV (as later reported), does that make it more or less likely that Wilson acted unjustifiably? Why?.. Disinformation or misinformation may be entirely innocent. It may not. Misinformation that is corrected as soon as it is pointed out is more likely to be innocent. Note that the reporter/blogger for _Daily Kos_ claims to have offered such an opportunity to the Ferguson PD on several occasions and was ignored. Are you not curious as to why? Would you mind terribly if I am? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/182 "2014-11-27T16:40:58Z")
If you can’t offer even the slightest hint of a reason why the discrepancy is relevant, then I think you are wrong the be curious. Or, to be more direct about the term, “Just Asking Questions.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/183 "2014-11-27T17:23:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you can’t offer even the slightest hint of a reason why the discrepancy is relevant, then I think you are wrong the be curious. Or, to be more direct about the term, “Just Asking Questions.” Why is it relevant? Because it makes no sense! I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; _that does not make sense!_ Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? _That does not make sense!_ But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does _not make sense!_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/184 "2014-11-27T17:35:12Z")
> [@](#): > > … Or, to be more direct about the term, “Just Asking Questions.” The “just askin’ questions!” ploy is, typically and classically, offered in situations where the suggestion has no foundation in fact. Naturally, I resent the implication and have little doubt that such was the thrust of your characterization. However, the presence of verifiable fact and documentation voids that insinuation. There are others that currently remain more speculative that I think call for clarity. For instance, I have read that Officer Wilson retained custody of the fatal weapon and turned the weapon over after he had retained custody for some time. My understanding is that this is not the normal and expected procedure. I would like that clarified, how about you? I have read that the initial interview with Officer Wilson was not recorded. Again, my understanding is that this is not the most correct procedure. I would like that clarified, how about you? I am told that the initial on-scene investigation by the medical examiner did not involve any measurements of distances, on the basis that the situation was so obvious, none was needed. I would like that clarified, how about you? Nonetheless, the Chief of St. Louis County Police definitively announced that the whole incident had taken place within about 35 feet of the SUV. On what basis did he make such a determination, since no measurements were made, so far as we know. I would like that clarified, how about you? There are others, would you like more, or would that also inspire the insinuation of JAQing off? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/185 "2014-11-27T17:48:56Z")
You can cite 250 witnesses who state under oath that the shooting happened 975 feet from the SUV, and cite Wilson saying that the shooting happened 340 feet in the other direction from the SUV. The question remains, what does the distance from the SUV matter? How do various answers change our understanding of the events? Does being closer or further from the car matter one way or another? If you can’t answer those questions, the matter of how many cites you may produce is irrelevant. You’re asking questions about a matter that seems to have no probative value, and using it as a means argue that something major is being covered up. It really is no different than a lot of the Republican outrage about the Benghazi talking points. So what you’ve posted on this issue is very much in the “Just Asking Questions” lane, unless you can explain why the questions are relevant in any way to our understanding of whether or not Wilson should be held legally responsible for what happened. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/186 "2014-11-27T18:19:08Z")
So, then, in your estimation correct procedure is dependent on presumed outcome? Isn’t the whole point of correct procedure that the outcome is _not_ presumed? That the “T”'s be crossed, the “I”'s dotted, regardless? You approve, then, of the ME’s decision not to take measurements, on the basis of his estimation that such a procedure would be a waste of time? “Due diligence”, then, has been served? And the other apparent variations on accepted procedure, you do not suffer any curiosity? Not just that justice is done, but that it be _seen_ to be done! All the more important when a significant portion of the affected population has doubt about the sincerity of its police and legal establishment. Perfectly plausible doubt, in my estimation, YMMV. I would be “JAQing” if there were no evidence to support my questions. There is, and you know there is. So be so kind as to shove your insinuations into the appropriate location. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/187 "2014-11-27T18:33:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The “just askin’ questions!” ploy is, typically and classically, offered in situations where the suggestion has no foundation in fact. Naturally, I resent the implication and have little doubt that such was the thrust of your characterization. you seemed confused about the 2 separate sets of distances and were asked about it. The chase distance is irrelevant in relation to the closing distance when Brown turned back on Wilson. Pick an argument and make a point. I’ll start this one for you. It’s a well established fact that stress changes perception. I was taught this in college psychology classes. Time and distance perception are radically altered. It was repeated in CCW class by the police officers doing the training. they went into great detail using real events. The subject is an entire thread by itself. The distance the officer ran in the chase is pretty much irrelevant in relation to anything. The closing distance When Brown turned on Wilson is more relevant to the discussion as it demonstrates the threat level. What was given in CCW class was a distance of 21 feet. This is the distance that an officer has to successfully react to a threat. Obviously it’s not carved in stone but it’s a general reference point for threat evaluation. If Brown was 40 feet away and witnesses said he was standing there that’s different than 10 feet and closing. So an investigation has to sift through testimony to eliminate people who didn’t actually witness it and compare that to forensic evidence. That is compared to the officer’s testimony. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/188 "2014-11-27T18:44:09Z")
The value of gathering objective evidence is not dependent on any presumed outcome. Or, at least, it shouldn’t be. Shirley you see that? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/189 "2014-11-27T18:59:07Z")
Nobody in this thread is arguing about the duty to collect important evidence. The main problem right now is our difficulty in collecting an explaination of why the distance from the SUV has any bearing on the guilt or innocence of Wilson. Right now, it’s harder to collect that than it is to collect rocks from a comet. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/190 "2014-11-27T19:08:26Z")
Because we need to be able to look our fellow Americans straight in the eye and say that everything that should have been done was done. They need that, and we need that as much as they do, perhaps even more. If you cannot see the value of that, there isn’t much that can be done for you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/191 "2014-11-27T19:24:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Because we need to be able to look our fellow Americans straight in the eye and say that everything that should have been done was done. They need that, and we need that as much as they do, perhaps even more. If you cannot see the value of that, there isn’t much that can be done for you. I agree with our esteemed colleague, the Senator from Arizona, on this. 😉 But wait a minute. Who are these “we” and “the American people” and why are they 2 different groups? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/192 "2014-11-27T19:35:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Because we need to be able to look our fellow Americans straight in the eye and say that everything that should have been done was done. They need that, and we need that as much as they do, perhaps even more. If you cannot see the value of that, there isn’t much that can be done for you. The case as it exists never should have gone to a Grand Jury. It was easy to establish by witness accounts and forensic evidence that Brown attacked Wilson in his car and turned on him during the chase. There was never any legal contention about what took place. This was nothing but a dog and pony show for public consumption and from that standpoint it was handled poorly. They should have revealed the known information up front and dispensed with the Grand Jury. There seems to be some kind of public misconception that you can attack a police officer (or anybody) and they’re expected to respond in a tit-for-tat measure. Officers have no way of knowing if the attacker does or doesn’t have a knife. It’s ridiculously easy to knock someone unconscious on the first blow and that’s a dangerous event for someone with a gun. I’ve seen this more than once in a bar fight. One punch and the other person drops like a sack of potatoes. In this case Brown already demonstrated his attack was serious by grabbing Wilson’s gun and that’s before he charged Wilson who presumably had his gun out during the chase. What kind of loon does this? The entire case literally hinges on one question. Was the officer in fear for his life. There isn’t even the tiniest chance in hell that a prosecutor could prove this wasn’t the case. It’s so far away from reasonable doubt standards it would take the Hubble Telescope to see it. If you’re picking through evidence and declaring it “interesting” then make a case for it as you go and stop throwing stuff on the wall to see if it sticks. We will then discuss the merits of your curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/193 "2014-11-27T20:46:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So be so kind as to shove your insinuations into the appropriate location. Back off. Let’s not get personal. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/194 "2014-11-27T20:49:09Z")
That said, > [@Ravenman](#): > > If the shooting was closer to the SUV (as first reported), does that make it more or less likely that Wilson acted unjustifiably? Why? > > If the shooting was further away from the SUV (as later reported), does that make it more or less likely that Wilson acted unjustifiably? Why? Wilson’s testimony is that Brown was charging him, stopped, and resumed charging him. If the Brown covered 175 feet in his “charge,” it supports Wilson’s claim that Brown was deliberately trying to get to him. If he only took a few steps, he might have simply been staggering after being wounded. Why are you making such a big deal about people asking questions? Despite the assertions of those who claim to know the Truth, this case does have the usual number of conflicting accounts about which folks on both sides of the discussion are naturally and genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/195 "2014-11-27T20:53:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The case as it exists never should have gone to a Grand Jury. It was easy to establish by witness accounts and forensic evidence that Brown attacked Wilson in his car and turned on him during the chase. There was never any legal contention about what took place. This is not accurate. Multiple witnesses provided contradictory testimonies. Beyond that, the whole “turned on him” phrase is a matter of interpretation. Brown could have turned in surprise at being shot. He could have been staggering forward in pain after turning. I do not offer either of these as actual interpretation of the events. However, claiming that the facts of the case had been “established” early on is nothing more than choosing a side and ignoring anything that conflicts with it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/196 "2014-11-27T21:37:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > …Beyond that, the whole “turned on him” phrase is a matter of interpretation. Brown could have turned in surprise at being shot. He could have been staggering forward in pain after turning. … I lean toward the notion that he exhausted himself dashing the distance that he had, being a 300 lb man. I suspect he turned to surrender, seeing that as his only option. It is fortunate, as I’ve noted before, that this was an isolated and rural location, as a responsible police officer wouldn’t start blazing away in a residential area. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/197 "2014-11-27T21:58:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I lean toward the notion that he exhausted himself dashing the distance that he had, being a 300 lb man. I suspect he turned to surrender, seeing that as his only option. > > It is fortunate, as I’ve noted before, that this was an isolated and rural location, as a responsible police officer wouldn’t start blazing away in a residential area. As with everyone else in this thread, (and the country), you are welcome to your opinions. I doubt that anyone is going to be persuaded to change their pre-formed beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/198 "2014-11-27T23:08:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Brown could have turned in surprise at being shot. He could have been staggering forward in pain after turning. No he couldn’t have. Since all 6 hits were in his front, not one in the back. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/199 "2014-11-27T23:19:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No he couldn’t have. Since all 6 hits were in his front, not one in the back. Surprised at being shot at, then, followed by staggering in pain when hit after turning. Or, he could have simply decided that he was not going to let Wilson shoot at him and decided to charge him. I do not have an opinion regarding what actually happened, but people arguing for a slam dunk version have to choose to ignore or interpret various claims by multiple conflicting witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/200 "2014-11-27T23:24:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Surprised at being shot at, then, followed by staggering in pain when hit after turning. Or, he could have simply decided that he was not going to let Wilson shoot at him and decided to charge him. As I explained before, the evidence shows that Wilson didn’t shoot at Brown’s back. [Post #166](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17932311&postcount=166) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=11)