# Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596 "2014-11-25T15:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/261 "2014-11-29T17:53:51Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > …However, there is evidence to the contrary. Johnson says Brown did not grab the gun. Other witnesses also say Brown did not reach into the vehicle. According to the forensic evidence, there were bits and pieces of Brown found on the inside of the police vehicle. That’s a pretty good indication that the witnesses who say Brown did not reach into the vehicle are mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/262 "2014-11-29T17:57:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > According to the forensic evidence, there were bits and pieces of Brown found on the inside of the police vehicle. That’s a pretty good indication that the witnesses who say Brown did not reach into the vehicle are mistaken. [nitpick]There was blood found inside the police vehicle, but only one bit (singular) of Brown was found anywhere, and it was on the weatherstripping around the top of the window.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/263 "2014-11-29T18:06:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I might very well have reached the conclusion that I would prefer to be alive and argue the legal points from that situation. YMMV. Then don’t rob stores to support your drug habit, walk down the middle of the road while you’re high, and most importantly, don’t attack a cop. Your mileage will absolutely vary. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/264 "2014-11-29T18:15:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s no evidence that Brown had his finger on the trigger. I think it’s likely that the gun didn’t fire because Brown’s hand was impeding the hammer, or he was pushing back on the slide to take it out of battery. Wilson was trying to fire it, and on the third trigger pull he succeeded, according to his statement. But I don’t really think Brown had contorted his giant fingers anywhere near the trigger. There’s forensic evidence his hand was on the gun and Wilson’s testimony (also evidence) of his finger in front of Wilson’s. But think of what you’re arguing. There’s a struggle for the gun. On a threat scale of 1 to 10 it’s a 10. Instead of walking over to the sidewalk KNOWING he had just robbed a store when he was high Mr Brown decided on plan B. It was a bad plan. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/265 "2014-11-29T18:24:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s forensic evidence his hand was on the gun and Wilson’s testimony (also evidence) of his finger in front of Wilson’s. From Wilson’s statement: “I know his hand was around my trigger finger which was inside the trigger guard.” I guess this is open to interpretation, but since he says _hand_ and not _finger_, I think the reasonable assumption is that he’s claiming Brown had grabbed the gun in such a way that his hand was on the outside of the trigger guard but in contact with his right index finger. He does not explicitly say that Brown’s hand was on the trigger, or inside the trigger guard, or anything else. > [@Magiver](#): > > But think of what you’re arguing. I’m not arguing anything, I’m just trying to keep everyone honest. That’s how these things go. We let “his finger was on the trigger” go by and next thing you know everyone just accepts it as fact and it changes the narrative slightly. Do that a few more times and you change the story. ---
**Author:** ![tbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tbird)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/266 "2014-11-29T18:42:53Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s no doubt that Brown was behaving aggressively that day. I don’t think it was because of the weed. The jury asked the toxicologist if the weed might have made him aggressive, and he pretty much said no. I mean, I’ve been high as hell before and it’s never made me want to do anything but eat delicious food and get laid . IMHO in a thread about physical evidence, the victim’s toxicology is worth noting. Not trying to beleaguer the point, but everyone’s reaction to THC may not be the same as yours.( Brown at that point didn’t seem to be interested in munchies and getting laid). The fact that Brown was not legally “sober” seems speak toward his state of mind and decision making. Based on the physical evidence he didn’t seem to be too mellowed out. Not trying to debate the pros and cons of weed, just as to the evidence of this case ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/267 "2014-11-29T18:47:28Z")
> [@tbird](#): > > . > IMHO in a thread about physical evidence, the victim’s toxicology is worth noting. Not trying to beleaguer the point, but everyone’s reaction to THC may not be the same as yours.( Brown at that point didn’t seem to be interested in munchies and getting laid). The fact that Brown was not legally “sober” seems speak toward his state of mind and decision making. Based on the physical evidence he didn’t seem to be too mellowed out. Not trying to debate the pros and cons of weed, just as to the evidence of this case Sure. The facts of the case are that he had THC in his system, witnesses say he acted aggressively, and an expert witness testified that the two probably weren’t linked. Anything beyond that is speculation, which you seem to frown upon. Any claims of “reefer madness” or “he was charging the cop because he was crazy on marijuana” is just silly speculation, and I reserve the right to call it such. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/268 "2014-11-29T18:59:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Then don’t rob stores to support your drug habit… So, he was hooked on Swisher Sweets, or was planning on selling them on the, ah, black market to support his weed addiction? ---
**Author:** ![tbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tbird)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/269 "2014-11-29T19:30:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, I think it’s important that even if we know one sentence of a witness’ statement is false, we can’t throw out their statement entirely, as some people are wont to do. “Dorian Johnson is a liar so we can ignore what he said entirely” is not a fair assessment, especially given how many crucial details he does fill in which fit with the narrative. We don’t have to believe everything he said, either because we believe he was sometimes lying or sometimes mistaken, but other than a few things he came off as very credible on the stand . Thanks again to streronz, for wading through the material. This is just my opinion, but it seems that witness testimony is so widely varied, some taken days after, its hard to tell who is most believable. I’m sure you could find someone who could pass a lie detector test swearing that they were abducted by aliens (and no, I’m not an anti-alienite), but as a member of a jury I would be more swayed by physical evidence. One other thing I haven’t seen mentioned, and I’m not sure if it would be part of a GJ hearing, is motive? Wison’s claim is self defense, “Brown was charging at him” and given the struggle in the car he feared for his life and the safety of the public. If he was going to trial for murder wouldn’t there have to motive? As of now there hasn’t been one racial incident in Wilson’s past that has come to light, although others with an agenda would wish it were otherwise. So if it wasn’t self defense then why? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/270 "2014-11-29T19:53:50Z")
> [@tbird](#): > > {…} If he was going to trial for murder wouldn’t there have to motive? {…} No. Motive is not a required element element of a crime under United States law. It’s nice when you can prove it but completely unnecessary to get a conviction. Also, don’t confuse [_motive_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_%28law%29) with [_mens rea_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea). CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/271 "2014-11-29T20:38:35Z")
Someone earlier insisted that it was “proven” that Michael Brown didn’t have his hands up. How was this “proven”? Was there forensic evidence to prove this or was it something else? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/272 "2014-11-29T20:48:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t think there was ever any real doubt that the GJ would not indict, if for no other reason than the fact that it takes nine of the twelve to do so. You continue harping on this. If it was such a Herculean task to get nine jurors to vote to indict, how do you ever think they were going to get _twelve_ jurors to vote to convict? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/273 "2014-11-29T22:21:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You continue harping on this. If it was such a Herculean task to get nine jurors to vote to indict, how do you ever think they were going to get _twelve_ jurors to vote to convict? It wasn’t a hurculean task. It could easily have been done by the presentation of a focused case instead of throwing everything and the kitchen sink to the jury along with unclear (and apparently sometimes incorrect) instructions. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/274 "2014-11-30T00:59:41Z")
> [@tbird](#): > > This is just my opinion, but it seems that witness testimony is so widely varied, some taken days after, its hard to tell who is most believable. I’m sure you could find someone who could pass a lie detector test swearing that they were abducted by aliens (and no, I’m not an anti-alienite), but as a member of a jury I would be more swayed by physical evidence. The physical evidence says that Darren Wilson shot and killed Michael Brown. Self defense is an affirmative defense, so at a trial it would be up to Wilson’s defense to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he had reason to fear for his life. At the grand jury, the bar was simply probably cause – that is, if the grand jury didn’t think Wilson _probably_ feared for his life, then they were instructed to indict. Now, you can’t get there without Darren Wilson’s testimony. Without him saying that Brown charged at him, at least, the physical evidence doesn’t prove self defense. So once you open the door to for eyewitness testimony, I think it’s only fair to listen to the other 20 or so people who saw the shooting. Of course, yes, it is very difficult to dissect fact from fiction when you have 20 something eyewitness accounts that all disagree slightly. I did my best to distill a common narrative from then, which is the task that the grand jury had as well. > [@tbird](#): > > One other thing I haven’t seen mentioned, and I’m not sure if it would be part of a GJ hearing, is motive? Wison’s claim is self defense, “Brown was charging at him” and given the struggle in the car he feared for his life and the safety of the public. If he was going to trial for murder wouldn’t there have to motive? As of now there hasn’t been one racial incident in Wilson’s past that has come to light, although others with an agenda would wish it were otherwise. So if it wasn’t self defense then why? I think the word you’re looking for is _intent_, which is an element of both murder and voluntary manslaughter under Missouri law. However, the grand jury also could have indicted for involuntary manslaughter, if they felt that Wilson unintentionally but recklessly caused Brown’s death > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Someone earlier insisted that it was “proven” that Michael Brown didn’t have his hands up. How was this “proven”? > > Was there forensic evidence to prove this or was it something else? It was not proven. I’m not even sure how it could be without a video. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/275 "2014-11-30T01:51:21Z")
Are you sure that Wilson had the burden to prove it was self defense? I recall reading an article that said that Wilson could assert self defense and the prosecution would have to prove otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/276 "2014-11-30T01:57:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Are you sure that Wilson had the burden to prove it was self defense? I recall reading an article that said that Wilson could assert self defense and the prosecution would have to prove otherwise. That’s correct. In Missouri, self-defense is not an affirmative defense. In court, the prosecution would have the burden of disproving the claim of self-defense beyond reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/277 "2014-11-30T02:17:55Z")
I stand corrected, you’re right. I believe I’m still correct about the grand jury finding of self defense, at least based on the instructions that were in the transcript, but I’ll admit that since there’s no “sides” and the prosecution wasn’t pushing for any charges things were very strange. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/278 "2014-11-30T07:58:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, he was hooked on Swisher Sweets, or was planning on selling them on the, ah, black market to support his weed addiction? [Blunts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_%28cannabis_cigar%29). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/279 "2014-11-30T08:04:18Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > From Wilson’s statement: > > “I know his hand was around my trigger finger which was inside the trigger guard.” > > I guess this is open to interpretation, but since he says _hand_ and not _finger_, I think the reasonable assumption is that he’s claiming Brown had grabbed the gun in such a way that his hand was on the outside of the trigger guard but in contact with his right index finger. He does not explicitly say that Brown’s hand was on the trigger, or inside the trigger guard, or anything else. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/280 "2014-11-30T15:57:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Realistically, nobody’s. Both had their finger on the trigger and the gun was being wrenched around. it takes 5 lbs of force to fire it. > [@steronz](#): > > From Wilson’s statement: > > “I know his hand was around my trigger finger which was inside the trigger guard.” > > I guess this is open to interpretation, but since he says _hand_ and not _finger_, I think the reasonable assumption is that he’s claiming Brown had grabbed the gun in such a way that his hand was on the outside of the trigger guard but in contact with his right index finger. He does not explicitly say that Brown’s hand was on the trigger, or inside the trigger guard, or anything else. {…} > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I agree. So, realistically, Wilson’s finger was in control of the trigger the entire time . . . like I said. CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=15)