# Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596 "2014-11-25T15:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![keeper0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@keeper0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeper0)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/281 "2014-11-30T19:44:59Z")
Continued kudos to steronz. My view of the day’s events is pretty close to steronz’s summary. And that represents a massive departure from my previous views. When the shooting happened and up until reading the prosecutor’s statement, my opinion was “This is one more example of a police officer not valuing an African-American’s life.” There have certainly been many other occurrences of this and the never-ending news cycle provided many witness accounts which supported that view in this case. When I heard the results of the announcement, my first reaction was to look for local protests to join. After reading the prosecutor’s summary, I wanted to slap him as a sanctimonious jerk, but I also questioned my previous view. This thread was excellent for challenging all of my preconceived notions. In addition to the judicial purpose, this grand jury had the political purpose of thoroughly separating truth from fiction in a politically charged issue. By presenting the forensic evidence and showing how “under oath” testimony differed from “news camera” testimony, the hope was that it would lead to consensus and healing. For me, that process worked. I now think that Officer Wilson did not act recklessly. If he was genuinely honest with himself, he would probably admit that he did not act perfectly, but the recklessness was entirely on Mr. Brown’s shoulders. That doesn’t absolve the Ferguson PD from criticism about how they handled the aftermath or eliminate larger society issues about racial challenges or militarized police forces, it just addresses the question of the individuals in this one instance. Has anyone besides me modified their previous views based on the new information? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/282 "2014-11-30T21:16:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [Blunts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_%28cannabis_cigar%29). I think it was the “support your drug habit” part that borders on sensationalism. If I snatched a stack of red Solo cups I rather doubt it’d be spun in the press as a brazen theft to support my beer keg habit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/283 "2014-12-01T01:55:04Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I think it was the “support your drug habit” part that borders on sensationalism. > > If I snatched a stack of red Solo cups I rather doubt it’d be spun in the press as a brazen theft to support my beer keg habit. Well OK then. Brown didn’t steal $48 worth of merchandize to smoke dope. Let me rephrase it. Brown freed up the unnecessary inventory of cancer causing products in order to make it easier to take his glaucoma medicine. Clearly a win/win. His poor eyesight is the reason he grabbed the storekeep by the throat instead of the door handle. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/284 "2014-12-01T02:10:33Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, realistically, Wilson’s finger was in control of the trigger the entire time . . . like I said. > > CMC fnord! No, I wouldn’t say that. control of the trigger implies Brown couldn’t squeeze the trigger. Wilson can’t generate enough force extending his finger to counter Brown squeezing over the top of his. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/285 "2014-12-01T03:36:14Z")
I’m relying on **steronz** ’s accurate reporting here . . . 'cause I sure ain’t gonna read the entire transcript! > [@Magiver](#): > > No, I wouldn’t say that. > > control of the trigger implies Brown couldn’t squeeze the trigger. Wilson can’t generate enough force extending his finger to counter Brown squeezing over the top of his. > [@steronz](#): > > {…} Wilson wrestles the gun up a bit and pulls the trigger. It doesn’t fire, presumably because Brown’s hand is impeding operation of the gun. On the third pull, it fires and shatters the window, startling them both. {…} How many times did Brown squeeze that trigger? Wilson says he could and did three times. I’m sure you can point me to where Wilson in his testimony says, “I (Wilson) can’t generate enough force extending my (his) finger to counter Brown squeezing over the top of mine (his)” CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/286 "2014-12-01T05:00:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m relying on **steronz** ’s accurate reporting here . . . 'cause I sure ain’t gonna read the entire transcript!How many times did Brown squeeze that trigger? Wilson says he could and did three times. Yes and he also said there was a struggle for the gun. If he had control of it Brown would have been shot by the car. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m sure you can point me to where Wilson in his testimony says, “I (Wilson) can’t generate enough force extending my (his) finger to counter Brown squeezing over the top of mine (his)” > > CMC fnord! I’m simply pointing out that having his finger on the trigger is not the same as having control of it. If during the struggle for the gun brown placed his finger over Wilson’s there’s nothing Wilson could have done to stop him from pulling it. It’s just a fact of life that the human hand can generate more force squeezing the finger then extending it out. Now if Wilson put his finger BEHIND the trigger he would be able to stop the gun from being fired. Looking at the Sig P229 it looks like there is enough space to do that if the hammer isn’t pulled back. The other thing Wilson can do to make the gun unfireable is to move the slide back. I believe in one of these discussions it was suggested that Brown did that when he grabbed the gun and that’s what prevented Wilson from firing initially. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/287 "2014-12-01T17:11:09Z")
I think that it should be obvious that when there’s a struggle over a gun, either party could get shot, regardless of whose finger is on the trigger, and regardless of who is presumably “in control” of the trigger. If Wilson had been shot, it certainly would have made the argument for Brown a lot more difficult. But that didn’t happen, so it is what it is, and let’s deal with reality rather than quibble over hypotheticals. Thanks for the careful study and reporting, Steronz! ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/288 "2014-12-01T18:15:26Z")
> [@keeper0](#): > > Has anyone besides me modified their previous views based on the new information? My original opinion wasn’t as strong as yours but I was leaning towards the Wilson-was-wrong camp. After steronz’s yeoman work I have come to pretty much the exact same conclusion as you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/289 "2014-12-01T18:31:26Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > My original opinion wasn’t as strong as yours but I was leaning towards the Wilson-was-wrong camp. After steronz’s yeoman work I have come to pretty much the exact same conclusion as you. For me, reading Wilson’s testimony made me believe that there should have been an indictment. Wilson’s story is full of bullshit. Do you really believe that Brown raised a cloud of dust as he ran? Wilson’s describing a fucking cartoon, not providing a remotely convincing version of events. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/290 "2014-12-01T18:33:35Z")
> [@keeper0](#): > > …Has anyone besides me modified their previous views based on the new information? Yes, I have modified my previous views. In the beginning, I wasn’t sure if Wilson was guilty of violating Missouri or Ferguson laws but I was willing to listen to all sides, ask questions, and wait for the grand jury’s finding. It’s now apparent that Wilson did not violate Missouri or Ferguson law. However, Eric “Fast and Furious” Holder’s Just-Us dept is still delving into possible federal violations. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/291 "2014-12-01T18:40:07Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > For me, reading Wilson’s testimony made me believe that there should have been an indictment. Wilson’s story is full of bullshit. Do you really believe that Brown raised a cloud of dust as he ran? Wilson’s describing a fucking cartoon, not providing a remotely convincing version of events. Brown out-ran his own sandals, but the only cloud of dust Brown could have raised would have been from his own socks. The forensic evidence supports much of Wilson’s story. Bottom-line, Brown’s last act was to advanced towards Wilson. Wilson shot Brown to stop Brown’s advance. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/292 "2014-12-01T18:53:06Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Brown out-ran his own sandals, but the only cloud of dust Brown could have raised would have been from his own socks. > > The forensic evidence supports much of Wilson’s story. Regarding the interaction at the car window, I don’t know that forensic evidence refutes Johnson’s version of events. No forensic evidence supports Wilson’s claim that Brown reached for Wilson’s gun. > [@](#): > > Bottom-line, Brown’s last act was to advanced towards Wilson. Wilson shot Brown to stop Brown’s advance. Perhaps. However, Wilson’s version is that Brown crow-hopped himself into a charge, all with a menacing look on his face that Wilson could discern. Don’t tell me obvious lies and I might not start questioning everything else you say. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/293 "2014-12-01T19:01:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > For me, reading Wilson’s testimony made me believe that there should have been an indictment. Wilson’s story is full of bullshit. Do you really believe that Brown raised a cloud of dust as he ran? Wilson’s describing a fucking cartoon, not providing a remotely convincing version of events. Even if you ignore Wilson’s statement entirely, there’s insufficient evidence for an indictment. What piece or pieces of evidence do you think show probable cause that the shooting was not in self defence? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/294 "2014-12-01T19:04:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Don’t tell me obvious lies and I might not start questioning everything else you say. This is one of the (many) areas we disagree. I don’t see anything in Wilson’s testimony that is an obvious lie; e.g. nothing directly contradicts the physical evidence. Sure, there is evidence that could be _interpreted_ to be different but certainly nothing obvious. For example, Wilson says the gun was fired in the car and there is direct evidence of that. On the other hand, some of the testimony in Brown’s favor almost certainly opposes the evidence. For example the evidence makes it extremely unlikely that Wilson shot at the back of Brown. Do you discount all those witnesses who said that he did? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/295 "2014-12-01T19:07:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Even if you ignore Wilson’s statement entirely, there’s insufficient evidence for an indictment. What piece or pieces of evidence do you think show probable cause that the shooting was not in self defence? Multiple eyewitnesses who testified that Brown was surrendering. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/296 "2014-12-01T19:09:38Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > For me, reading Wilson’s testimony made me believe that there should have been an indictment. Wilson’s story is full of bullshit. Do you really believe that Brown raised a cloud of dust as he ran? Wilson’s describing a fucking cartoon, not providing a remotely convincing version of events. Ahh - the Cloud of Dust Gambit. Brilliant. You think there should have been an indictment. What do you base your conclusion on? You have the entire grand jury proceedings to pull from. Please show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/297 "2014-12-01T19:16:09Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Multiple eyewitnesses who testified that Brown was surrendering. If they said, as I remember, “he had his hands up as though he was surrendering”, then no. If they has said “he was unambiguously surrendering, ceasing anything that could have been considered a continuation of his attack” then yes, probably. If, as the evidence shows, Brown’s conduct was such that a reasonable person could be in fear of death or serious injury, lethal force is justifiable in self defence until such point that no reasonable person could be in such fear, if Wilson was in fact in said fear. Simply raising one’s hands doesn’t come close to meeting that standard. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/298 "2014-12-01T19:25:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If they said, as I remember, “he had his hands up as though he was surrendering”, then no. You’re being ridiculous then. Multiple witnesses saw what they thought was an unjustified homicide. They described it as such. If those were the only witnesses to testify before the grand jury, there would have been an indictment. There was evidence that Wilson was guilty of a crime. You continue to choose to believe that the grand jury was a complete slam dunk, that every scrap of evidence put before them completely exonerated Wilson, but you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/299 "2014-12-01T19:30:18Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ahh - the Cloud of Dust Gambit. Brilliant. You think there should have been an indictment. What do you base your conclusion on? You have the entire grand jury proceedings to pull from. Please show your work. I’m stating expressly what I mean. When someone needs to weave fanciful embellishments into their description, my reaction is that they are not being truthful, and are instead trying to sell me something. Point me to the evidence, apart from Wilson’s testimony, that confirms that Brown grabbed the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/300 "2014-12-01T19:38:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m stating expressly what I mean. When someone needs to weave fanciful embellishments into their description, my reaction is that they are not being truthful, and are instead trying to sell me something. > > Point me to the evidence, apart from Wilson’s testimony, that confirms that Brown grabbed the gun. Now we’re on to the ‘grab the gun’ gambit. Is it your contention that whether or not the gun was grabbed is the lynchpin of the decision to indict or not? You think Wilson should have been indicted. You state there were fanciful embellishments - what were they? Walk us through your reasoning. It would be helpful to understand the basis for your conclusion. For example, the contrary position could look like this: _I don’t think Wilson should have been indicted because all physical evidence is consistent with Wilson defending himself which in accordance with the laws of Missouri he had the right to do. In addition there was absolutely no quanta of evidence that would allow a jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Wilson was not acting in self defense and therefore an indictment leading to a trial would be a giant waste of everything._ All you have to do is show evidence that supports your conclusion. Can you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=16)