# Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596 "2014-11-25T15:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/301 "2014-12-01T20:01:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Regarding the interaction at the car window, I don’t know that forensic evidence refutes Johnson’s version of events. No forensic evidence supports Wilson’s claim that Brown reached for Wilson’s gun. > > Perhaps. However, Wilson’s version is that Brown crow-hopped himself into a charge, all with a menacing look on his face that Wilson could discern. > > Don’t tell me obvious lies and I might not start questioning everything else you say. At some time during the Wilson/Brown stop, Brown moved away from the police vehicle, stopped, turned around, and faced Wilson. Do you believe that part is accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/302 "2014-12-01T20:31:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Now we’re on to the ‘grab the gun’ gambit. Is it your contention that whether or not the gun was grabbed is the lynchpin of the decision to indict or not? You think Wilson should have been indicted. You state there were fanciful embellishments - what were they? Walk us through your reasoning. It would be helpful to understand the basis for your conclusion. For example, the contrary position could look like this: > > _I don’t think Wilson should have been indicted because all physical evidence is consistent with Wilson defending himself which in accordance with the laws of Missouri he had the right to do. In addition there was absolutely no quanta of evidence that would allow a jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Wilson was not acting in self defense and therefore an indictment leading to a trial would be a giant waste of everything._ > > All you have to do is show evidence that supports your conclusion. Can you? Sure. Johnson’ s testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/303 "2014-12-01T20:32:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > At some time during the Wilson/Brown stop, Brown moved away from the police vehicle, stopped, turned around, and faced Wilson. Do you believe that part is accurate? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/304 "2014-12-01T20:41:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sure. Johnson’ s testimony. What part of Johnson’s testimony do you find credible enough to lead you to conclude that Wilson should have been indicted? No mention of the grab for the gun, or the dust from running - are those part of the support for yourconclusion as well? Illustrate the picture of what happened that in your mind should return an indictment? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/305 "2014-12-01T20:48:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. During the Wilson/Brown stop, after Brown had turned to face Wilson, forensic evidence suggests that Brown move towards Wilson. Some eyewitnesses say Brown did not advance towards Wilson. Other eyewitnesses say Brown did, in fact, advance towards Wilson. Which group of eyewitness testimony agrees with the forensic evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/306 "2014-12-02T19:51:28Z")
Here’s a link to Cyril Wecht, a coroner and pathologist, describing the gunshot wounds to Browns arms as indicating that his hands were up, and the chest wounds as having a downward trajectory. > **[Pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht reacts to 'absurd' defense of Darren Wilson](https://m.dailykos.com/stories/1348243)** > > Dr. Wecht: I don't like to be dogmatic, but there is only one way this scenario plays out when you look at the bullet wounds. There are two wounds, one in the forearm entering dorsally and ... He describes Wilson’s scenario as “absurd.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/307 "2014-12-02T20:08:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s a link to Cyril Wecht, a coroner and pathologist, describing the gunshot wounds to Browns arms as indicating that his hands were up, and the chest wounds as having a downward trajectory. > > [Daily Kos](http://m.dailykos.com/stories/1348243) > > He describes Wilson’s scenario as “absurd.” He also said that it was “absolutely impossible” that a single bullet struck President Kennedy and then went on to strike Governor Connally. I cannot find that he specifically endorses that Oswald did not act alone, but he has certainly implied such. So, let’s take his views with a grain of salt. ETA: I see now that he called the Kennedy assassination a “coup d’etat.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/308 "2014-12-02T20:13:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s a link to Cyril Wecht, a coroner and pathologist, describing the gunshot wounds to Browns arms as indicating that his hands were up, and the chest wounds as having a downward trajectory. Did Cyril Wecht examine Brown’s body? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/309 "2014-12-02T20:17:05Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sure. Johnson’ s testimony. Johnson is a proven liar. Nothing he says can be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/310 "2014-12-02T20:17:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m stating expressly what I mean. When someone needs to weave fanciful embellishments into their description, my reaction is that they are not being truthful, and are instead trying to sell me something. > > Point me to the evidence, apart from Wilson’s testimony, that confirms that Brown grabbed the gun. My impression was that the dust was kicked up by the second shot Wilson fired from the car, not from some sort of speedy getaway by Brown. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sure. Johnson’ s testimony. You really find his testimony more believable than Wilson’s? The one where he states that he and Brown never had a chance to smoke weed? Why tell such an obvious lie knowing that the tox report would show THC in Brown’s system? Then his description of Brown “struggling” to pull away from Wilson’s iron grip at the patrol car, when all 300lb Brown would need to do to break that grip would be to step back or use the frame of the car for leverage. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/311 "2014-12-02T20:31:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > ETA: I see now that he called the Kennedy assassination a “coup d’etat.” Ouch. What does it say when evidence brought forth by one side ends up being from a CTer? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/312 "2014-12-02T20:45:53Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > My impression was that the dust was kicked up by the second shot Wilson fired from the car, not from some sort of speedy getaway by Brown. He said “When I look up after that, I see him start to run and I see a cloud of dust behind him.” How does that remotely sound like dust came from his shot? Are you suggesting that he shot at Brown while Brown was running away? > [@](#): > > You really find his testimony more believable than Wilson’s? The one where he states that he and Brown never had a chance to smoke weed? Why tell such an obvious lie knowing that the tox report would show THC in Brown’s system? Then his description of Brown “struggling” to pull away from Wilson’s iron grip at the patrol car, when all 300lb Brown would need to do to break that grip would be to step back or use the frame of the car for leverage. Yes. See also Ezra Klein: > **[Officer Darren Wilson’s story is unbelievable. Literally.](https://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... As for the “tug of war” versus reaching in the vehicle and grabbing the gun, where were Brown’s fingerprints found? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/313 "2014-12-02T21:35:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Also, I think it’s important that even if we know one sentence of a witness’ statement is false, we can’t throw out their statement entirely, as some people are wont to do. “Dorian Johnson is a liar so we can ignore what he said entirely” is not a fair assessment, especially given how many crucial details he does fill in which fit with the narrative. We don’t have to believe everything he said, either because we believe he was sometimes lying or sometimes mistaken, but other than a few things he came off as very credible on the stand. IMO it depends on how wrong they are, and also on whether their testimony appears to be stretched in the same direction as their symphathies. For example, I would tend to dismiss all the testimony of anyone who claims to have seen Wilson standing over Brown and finishing him off at close range. But I also somewhat more skeptical of various neighborhood people whose demonstrably incorrect testimony also tends to support neighborhood narratives - I would see this as evidence that these people saw what they wanted to see (or at least recall themselves as doing so) if they’re not making things up altogether. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/314 "2014-12-02T22:35:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > He said “When I look up after that, I see him start to run and I see a cloud of dust behind him.” How does that remotely sound like dust came from his shot? Are you suggesting that he shot at Brown while Brown was running away? Yes. See also Ezra Klein: > > [Officer Darren Wilson’s story is unbelievable. Literally. | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side) > > As for the “tug of war” versus reaching in the vehicle and grabbing the gun, where were Brown’s fingerprints found? Regarding the dust, at first I thought he meant from running, too, and thought that sounded strange. But later in his testimony Wilson goes back over that part of the event and I think he’s talking about the bullet kicking up dust. > [@](#): > > Page 231-232 of Volume 5: > Q: “And when you, when the second shot was fired inside the car, did you think he was hit at all?” > Wilson: No, I thought I missed. > Q: Both shots. You didn’t see any blood on him? > Wilson: The first shot, judging by his reaction, he went back, I thought it went through the door and hit him in the leg, in the hip, is what I thought. > Q: Okay. > Wilson: The second one I saw the cloud of dust and him running, I knew I missed. That does not imply, nor do I believe, that he means Brown was running away when he shot him. After the first shot Brown stepped back but then reengaged Wilson, hitting him again. Wilson has his left hand/arm up for protection and it’s blocking his view. He fires again, blindly, and when his view is no longer blocked he sees lingering dust and Brown running away. That article seems pretty biased. Also, the author points out how unbelievable it is that Brown would hand off the cigarillos to Johnson, but that’s corroborated by Johnson’s own testimony. Do you really think it would be hard for a 300lb guy to break away from someone holding onto them with one hand through a car window? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/315 "2014-12-03T01:42:41Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > Regarding the dust, at first I thought he meant from running, too, and thought that sounded strange. But later in his testimony Wilson goes back over that part of the event and I think he’s talking about the bullet kicking up dust. That version does read a bit different than his first. > [@](#): > > That does not imply, nor do I believe, that he means Brown was running away when he shot him. After the first shot Brown stepped back but then reengaged Wilson, hitting him again. Wilson has his left hand/arm up for protection and it’s blocking his view. He fires again, blindly, and when his view is no longer blocked he sees lingering dust and Brown running away. > > That article seems pretty biased. Also, the author points out how unbelievable it is that Brown would hand off the cigarillos to Johnson, but that’s corroborated by Johnson’s own testimony. Do you really think it would be hard for a 300lb guy to break away from someone holding onto them with one hand through a car window? So where were the prints? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/316 "2014-12-03T02:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] As for the “tug of war” versus reaching in the vehicle and grabbing the gun, where were Brown’s fingerprints found? [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > So where were the prints? It’s a good question. Could be that they were smeared…if they really were struggling with the gun the gun could twist which would smear the prints. I don’t know enough about finger prints to know if you grabbed something that was twisting about if you could get a good print. Reading the account though in the linked article I have a question for you or others…how did the window get shot out if there wasn’t a struggle? Why would the cop shoot out his own window? I’m asking this not to be confrontational but because I’m trying to understand all of this. From the linked article: > [@](#): > > And then Brown grabs Wilson’s gun, twists it, and points it at Wilson’s “pelvic area”. Wilson regains control of the firearm and gets off a shot, shattering the glass. I presume that this actually happened anyway and was presented as evidence that something occurred wrt the interior of the vehicle. > [@](#): > > There are also consistencies. St Louis prosecutor Robert McCulloch said that Brown’s DNA was found inside Wilson’s car, suggesting there was a physical altercation inside the vehicle. We know shots were fired from inside the car. We know Brown’s bullet wounds show he was only hit from the front, never from the back. So, even if there were no fingerprints on the gun, obviously SOMETHING happened in the vehicle…right? On the other side of things, I’m puzzled by this: > [@](#): > > There are inconsistencies in Wilson’s story. He estimates that Brown ran 20-30 feet away from the car and then charged another 10 feet back towards Wilson. But we know Brown died 150 feet away from the car. Obviously, there was a chase from whatever happened in the car. I can give Wilson the benefit of the doubt on some of what’s in that article…when you are in something like this your memory can play strange tricks. But this part seems WAY off and really brings into question a lot of the story about Michael Brown charging a cop that had already fired shots in his own car and was chasing him and probably screaming at him to stop. It just doesn’t seem likely, as the author notes, that he would turn and charge at an armed and obviously angry police officer at that point (150 feet from the car??). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/317 "2014-12-03T02:23:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It’s a good question. Could be that they were smeared…if they really were struggling with the gun the gun could twist which would smear the prints. I don’t know enough about finger prints to know if you grabbed something that was twisting about if you could get a good print. That’s a question, but I’m asking more broadly. Were there prints on the exterior, consistent with the tug-of-war story? Were there prints inside the car, consistent with the reaching in story? > [@](#): > > Reading the account though in the linked article I have a question for you or others…how did the window get shot out if there wasn’t a struggle? I don’t think anyone contends there wasn’t a struggle. The window getting shot out is consistent with either story (although I have a hard time envisioning a giant demon person reaching his body in through a partially open window and getting multiple punches in through that partially open window). But why would Brown have to be in the vehicle to get the window shot out? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/318 "2014-12-03T03:39:54Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] That’s a question, but I’m asking more broadly. Were there prints on the exterior, consistent with the tug-of-war story? Were there prints inside the car, consistent with the reaching in story? [/QUOTE] I didn’t see it presented as evidence, though I don’t know if the lack of prints tells us much. > [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone contends there wasn’t a struggle. The window getting shot out is consistent with either story (although I have a hard time envisioning a giant demon person reaching his body in through a partially open window and getting multiple punches in through that partially open window). From what I’ve heard there is DNA evidence of Brown being in the car as well, though with so chaotic a crime scene there could be all sorts of cross contamination I guess. > [@](#): > > But why would Brown have to be in the vehicle to get the window shot out? I guess I’m not seeing how a police officer could shoot his window out (i.e. from inside the car) without it being a wild fire event involving a struggle inside the car. I could see a shot going in from the outside, but I can’t picture an officer inside his car shooting a window out even if he was trying to shoot at someone outside the car. How do you picture that part, out of curiosity? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/319 "2014-12-03T04:01:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I didn’t see it presented as evidence, though I don’t know if the lack of prints tells us much. How is it suddenly that touching things with bare hands doesn’t leave prints? Is it just this case? > [@](#): > > From what I’ve heard there is DNA evidence of Brown being in the car as well, though with so chaotic a crime scene there could be all sorts of cross contamination I guess. His blood is in the car. Whatever the other DNA might be, that all could easily come from the wound to Brown’s hand. > [@](#): > > I guess I’m not seeing how a police officer could shoot his window out (i.e. from inside the car) without it being a wild fire event involving a struggle inside the car. I could see a shot going in from the outside, but I can’t picture an officer inside his car shooting a window out even if he was trying to shoot at someone outside the car. How do you picture that part, out of curiosity? Johnson’s testimony is consistent with that. A struggle at the window. Brown trying to pull away. Wilson ends up with a grip on Brown’s right arm, pulling it into the window area. If you tell me there’s no prints on the door (exterior or immediate interior) or side mirror, I’ll be more doubtful about the tug of war story. If however there are, I’m going to suggest it’s not likely that he’s both grabbing the door frame and assaulting Wilson with his left hand. Also, why are the first two shots not on the audio we’ve heard? They wouldn’t be from that much further away and they would have happened only a few seconds before. (I’ve also found it odd how the guy on the audio has no reaction to so many loud shots. I suppose it could be so commonplace there that he is inured to it, but that seemed remarkable to me.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/320 "2014-12-03T04:20:09Z")
Never mind…I see you’ve already answered much of this. I’ve only been skimming the thread and didn’t realize all of this has been covered already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=17)