# Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596 "2014-11-25T15:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/61 "2014-11-25T23:35:08Z")
We know that Brown collapsed and died 150 feet from the SUV, but the most important thing I would like to know is how far away Wilson was from Brown when he fired the final volley of shots. I can’t seem to find that anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/62 "2014-11-25T23:36:37Z")
Many thanks for the analysis. I just don’t have the time to wade through the documents. One question. Is any mention made of a juvenile record for Brown in the grand jury documents? His aggressive behavior didn’t just appear out of thin air. Attacking a cop in his patrol car is pretty bold. He knew to grab the slide of the gun to keep it from firing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/63 "2014-11-25T23:37:46Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > We know that Brown collapsed and died 150 feet from the SUV, but the most important thing I would like to know is how far away Wilson was from Brown when he fired the final volley of shots. I can’t seem find that anywhere. According to Wilson, 8 to 10 feet away. I didn’t see any forensic evidence contradicting that. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/64 "2014-11-25T23:40:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Yeah, the strange thing is that _nobody_ puts them 150 feet from the car. Everyone says it was 5-15 steps, Wilson says like 20-30 feet initially. I don’t recall a single witness testimony that accurately pegged either the distance (or the number of shots for that matter), and there’s lots of witness who state some sort of distance. Most People are simply horrible at estimating distances, particularly under stress. I can speak from experience, cause I was a witness once who gave an estimate of 100ft in statement, which I was pretty certain of the ballpark of. Back at the scene unmistakeable landmarks proved it was 250ft :smack: There were other witnesses in the area who all gave different and highly incorrect numbers, so one lawyer brought in an expert on peoples shitty estimation to try to convince that jury that it was a very common mistake, and not indicative of someone lying, or inaccuracy in other areas of witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/65 "2014-11-25T23:41:46Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > [Was the prosecutor in this case helping raise money for Darren Wilson?](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43839_Is_St._Louis_County_Prosecutor_Robert_McCulloch_Helping_Raise_Money_for_Ofc._Darren_Wilson) The answer to the question is “It doesn’t matter, because the grand jury made the decision, not him”. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/66 "2014-11-25T23:58:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > According to Wilson, 8 to 10 feet away. I didn’t see any forensic evidence contradicting that. Based on the shell casings, That seems reasonable… 5 to 15 feet is all within the realm of possibility. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/67 "2014-11-26T00:00:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The goal is to find out whose DNA is on the gun, right? Not just whether it is Michael Brown’s. By swabbing one spot you’re not reaching that goal. The goal is to gather evidence off the gun, be it DNA or fingerprints. The CSI guy said you can’t get both, and I’ll accept that if he says it, that’s probably true. Your explanation has failed to convince me of anything. I think we’re done with this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/68 "2014-11-26T00:02:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Yeah, the strange thing is that _nobody_ puts them 150 feet from the car. Everyone says it was 5-15 steps, Wilson says like 20-30 feet initially. I don’t recall a single witness testimony that accurately pegged either the distance (or the number of shots for that matter), and there’s lots of witness who state some sort of distance. Far from an expert on this, but the first thing that comes to mind that would explain it would be if the car was moved afterwards. Does that make any kind of sense to say at all? And yeah, count me as another one that appreciates this thread. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/69 "2014-11-26T00:03:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > One thing that’s striking is how wildly inconsistent various witness statements are with each other and with other forms of evidence. One unfortunate aspect of it is that it kind of leaves everyone with something to hold on to. Any person predisposed to one side or another can select the evidence that supports their side and focus on that. More importantly: there is waaaay more than enough evidence for any remotely competent defense lawyer to create reasonable doubt. There was no chance in hell they were ever going to get a conviction, and when you realize that, everything else falls into place. The prosecutor didn’t want to take a sure-loser case to trial, but there was too much media and community pressure to just not press charges. Hence, the halfhearted attempt at an indictment hoping to deflect the rage onto the grand jury. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/70 "2014-11-26T00:07:02Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > One question. Is any mention made of a juvenile record for Brown in the grand jury documents? His aggressive behavior didn’t just appear out of thin air. Attacking a cop in his patrol car is pretty bold. He knew to grab the slide of the gun to keep it from firing. Grabbing the slide of a gun won’t stop it from firing – there are lots of videos on youtube that prove this. All it will do is stop the next round from being chambered, and since Wilson’s gun continued to fire and he makes no mention of racking it at any point, I think we can assume the slide operated normally. All Wilson says is that the gun doesn’t fire and he thinks it’s because of where Brown’s hand is. Maybe he was gumming up the firing pin somehow, I don’t know shit about Sig Sauers, but that’s going to be a lot harder to do during a struggle. The only sure-fire way to stop a gun from firing is to jam your finger behind the trigger, which, again, is pretty hard to do. That said, there’s been no mention of his juvenile record. The Dorian Johnson testimony brought up Dorian Johnson’s history, and they spent ample time talking about the great Swisher robbery, including Mike Brown’s motives and demeanor. Johnson thought that Brown was entirely too casual about stealing the cigars and then making no effort to hide from the cops. But no, no mention of Brown’s record at this point. And I don’t think there will be a mention of it based on the other files I’ve skimmed through. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/71 "2014-11-26T00:09:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Far from an expert on this, but the first thing that comes to mind that would explain it would be if the car was moved afterwards. Does that make any kind of sense to say at all? > > And yeah, count me as another one that appreciates this thread. Nobody reported the car being moved, and there were plenty of people whose statements continued until a second officer was on the scene. Somebody would have seen it. I think it’s much more likely that people just don’t realize how far it is to run a few houses down the street. During the trial all of the witnesses are asked to locate their testimony on a big map of the street, but I don’t know if that was happening during the police/FBI interviews. That may have helped people give more accurate distances. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/72 "2014-11-26T00:30:42Z")
(End of Grand Jury Volume 8) I’m skipping around a bit now, because a lot of these witness testimonies are either duplicated, or I can’t match them up to a previous statement. I may circle back to those if I have time. The crime scene detective came back and testified about evidence pulled off the the police cruiser – presumably finger prints on the exterior window sill, DNA on the upper window weatherstripping, and blood inside the car. They also found one of the projectiles inside the door (it didn’t penetrate the door skin). Interestingly, the grand jury asks if any grand juries have released public statements explaining their decision. They’re clear to say that they’re not necessarily considering that, but they want to know if it’s something that’s been done before. The prosecutors say they’ve never heard of it. The grand jury suggests that it might help with community relations. This is back on Sept 30th… ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/73 "2014-11-26T00:41:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The answer to the question is “It doesn’t matter, because the grand jury made the decision, not him”. So you don’t think that if the allegations were true, that would or could affect the evidence presented, or the way in which the case was argued? Because if it could, that would certainly add relevance. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/74 "2014-11-26T00:46:25Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So you don’t think that if the allegations were true, that would or could affect the evidence presented, or the way in which the case was argued? Because if it could, that would certainly add relevance. Please guys, there’s plenty of other threads for conspiracy talk. I’m interesting in knowing what evidence was presented to the grand jury, not why that evidence was chosen or what they weren’t presented… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/75 "2014-11-26T00:49:03Z")
Grand Jury Volume 10 I’m not sure what witness this is, but she just keeps saying that she wanted Michael Brown to stop walking towards Wilson. She said it was frustrating that he kept walking. She said he took maybe 10 steps and then Wilson shot him dead. His hands were up for most of it, as if to say “I’m not a threat.” But it sounds like victim blaming, as if the witness is saying he wasn’t charging Wilson but he still should have gotten on his knees or laid down. It’s odd testimony, and I can’t help but feel that it made an impact. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/76 "2014-11-26T00:58:48Z")
I have read Wilson’s GJ testimony. I used [this version](http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html). Most of the discussion seems to focus on whether Wilson was justified in using deadly force after Brown had run away and may or may not have been charging, or moving somehow, back towards Wilson. Could Wilson have been indicted for anything he did earlier? See Vol. 10, p. 210 line 5. Wilson attempts to get out his vehicle, so he was not reasonably afraid for his life then. Though the photos don’t look to me as if he got punched hard in the face, let’s assume he was, and on p. 214 lines 16-17 he says his gun is his only option. On p. 216 lines 22 and onward, he says he thought further punches might be fatal. On line 19 of p. 214 Wilson says he told Brown “get back or I am going to shoot you”. Is Wilson legally entitled to use deadly force here? Is it any crime to threaten to use deadly force where it would be illegal to do so? After Wilson said this, there was a struggle for control of his gun, and on p. 224 12-15 he describes the first shot. It went through the door, but it is not clear if Wilson aimed the shot, or if that is just where the gun was pointing during the struggle. On p. 225 lines 3-7 Wilson describes trying to fire again after Wilson came back towards him with his hands up. Is Wilson legally justifying in trying to use deadly force here? I don’t reasonably expect him to try and retreat into the passenger’s seat, and I know things happened fast, but I bet he still did have the car in Drive. Once he had the gun back it seems that he might be considered unreasonable for not using the car to get some distance, then get out and re-engage. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/77 "2014-11-26T02:07:17Z")
Thanks for taking the time **steronz**. Good read. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/78 "2014-11-26T02:12:55Z")
Back up is on its way. The subject is injured and unarmed. He is unlikely to escape and elude arrest, if only as far as the nearest emergency room. Opening fire in a residential neighborhood ought to carefully considered. (Point of fact, we don’t know where…4?..5?..bullets went.) I don’t expect calm, reasonable and careful consideration from a thug, damned sure expect it from a cop. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/79 "2014-11-26T02:19:36Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > Is Wilson legally justifying in trying to use deadly force here? As far as I know (IANAL), if you accept Wilson’s account at face value then he’s legally justified in using deadly force. Or rather, you can get into the weeds about what other options he had, but nobody, myself included, is going to fault him for using lethal force when he’s being pinned down in a confined area and punched in the face. Of course, the confrontation in the car is one of the two main areas the interviewers focused on, specifically, _was Michael Brown’s head and body physically inside the car during the altercation._ Many of the witnesses didn’t really seem to have an opinion, and only offered one up after being directly asked. This is for 2 reasons, I think – one, nobody was paying that close attention until shots were fired, and two, watching Michael Brown die was far, far more memorable than everything that came prior. Because of this, there’s really only 3 people who offer up a good narrative of the altercation at the car – Darren Wilson, Dorian Johnson, and Witness 10. (There are other witnesses who describe something, but I don’t believe they’d carry nearly as much weight as the 3 key witnesses.) Wilson’s testimony is obviously self-serving, and Dorian Johnson’s testimony doesn’t match up with the physical evidence (to wit, he’s pretty soft on whether or not Brown was throwing punches, but we know Wilson was hit in the face hard enough to leave a nasty purple bruise). That leaves Witness 10, who’s testimony would surely exonerate Darren Wilson. So while the interviewers were certainly interested in what happened at the car, and while it’s certainly an important part of the case, IMHO the real issue for the grand jury came down to what happened in the street. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/80 "2014-11-26T02:33:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Any suggestion as to why? Seems to me, fingerprints would be more definite evidence that Brown had actually grabbed the gun. The kerfs cut into the slide (as grips) are like cheese graters. They’ll take skin off but there is little space to leave a good print. The grip of a gun is usually textured to help hold onto to it which makes it a poor source of prints. Most slides are laser engraved on both sides with the name of the gun and model number so there’s very little real estate that allows for a good print. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=5)