# Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596 "2014-11-25T15:03:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/81 "2014-11-26T02:45:35Z")
I finally got through Dorian Johnson’s gj testimony. His story about the store robbery rings true. He put the carton back on the counter and tried to minimize his involvement. The biggest revelation for me was the cop’s mistake. Backing up his car and placing Brown right beside his door. That seems like very poor procedure for an officer working alone. That put him in a vulnerable position and resulted in the window fight. He should have kept some distance. Parked twenty feet away and approached the suspects on foot. The outcome might have been much different. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/82 "2014-11-26T02:47:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > As far as I know (IANAL), if you accept Wilson’s account at face value then he’s legally justified in using deadly force. Or rather, you can get into the weeds about what other options he had, but nobody, myself included, is going to fault him for using lethal force when he’s being pinned down in a confined area and punched in the face. > > Of course, the confrontation in the car is one of the two main areas the interviewers focused on, specifically, _was Michael Brown’s head and body physically inside the car during the altercation._ Many of the witnesses didn’t really seem to have an opinion, and only offered one up after being directly asked. This is for 2 reasons, I think – one, nobody was paying that close attention until shots were fired, and two, watching Michael Brown die was far, far more memorable than everything that came prior. > > Because of this, there’s really only 3 people who offer up a good narrative of the altercation at the car – Darren Wilson, Dorian Johnson, and Witness 10. (There are other witnesses who describe something, but I don’t believe they’d carry nearly as much weight as the 3 key witnesses.) Wilson’s testimony is obviously self-serving, and Dorian Johnson’s testimony doesn’t match up with the physical evidence (to wit, he’s pretty soft on whether or not Brown was throwing punches, but we know Wilson was hit in the face hard enough to leave a nasty purple bruise). That leaves Witness 10, who’s testimony would surely exonerate Darren Wilson. > > So while the interviewers were certainly interested in what happened at the car, and while it’s certainly an important part of the case, IMHO the real issue for the grand jury came down to what happened in the street. Nobody, including Wilson will give a perfect account. It’s just the nature of the human mind in times of great stress. Wilson may claim with all sincerity that Brown had a shotgun. all it takes is a flash of a shape anywhere in the vicinity for the brain to recognize it as such. What is sorted out after everything is examined is testimony that is consistent with the physical evidence. That provides the best account of what took place. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/83 "2014-11-26T05:25:19Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > …The biggest revelation for me was the cop’s mistake. Backing up his car and placing Brown right beside his door. That seems like very poor procedure for an officer working alone. That put him in a vulnerable position and resulted in the window fight. He should have kept some distance. Parked twenty feet away and approached the suspects on foot. The outcome might have been much different. (post shortened) As I understand it, Wilson backed up when he realized that these two jaywalkers might be the perps from the strongarm robbery. Brown closed Wilson’s car door when Wilson attempted to exit his vehicle and the fight was on. It’s unclear how far Brown traveled to reached Wilson’s vehicle and force the door closed. 3 feet? 10 feet? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/84 "2014-11-26T05:39:46Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > An interesting development: > > [Was the prosecutor in this case helping raise money for Darren Wilson?](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43839_Is_St._Louis_County_Prosecutor_Robert_McCulloch_Helping_Raise_Money_for_Ofc._Darren_Wilson) > > A serious conflict-of-interest, if true. > :dubious: There is no conflict of interest and it is not true. Someone printed a “Support Wilson” t-shirt and announced that half of the money from sales will go to [backstoppers.com](http://backstoppers.com). It was not authorized by [backstoppers.com](http://backstoppers.com), they didn’t receive any money from the sales, and said that if they do they will return it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/85 "2014-11-26T05:42:59Z")
_Little Green Footballs_ has become somewhat more reliable, but not by much. If you read it there first, you read it there first, if you read it somewhere else as well, maybe it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/86 "2014-11-26T13:34:58Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Grabbing the slide of a gun won’t stop it from firing – there are lots of videos on youtube that prove this. All it will do is stop the next round from being chambered, and since Wilson’s gun continued to fire and he makes no mention of racking it at any point, I think we can assume the slide operated normally. > > All Wilson says is that the gun doesn’t fire and he thinks it’s because of where Brown’s hand is. Maybe he was gumming up the firing pin somehow, I don’t know shit about Sig Sauers, but that’s going to be a lot harder to do during a struggle. The only sure-fire way to stop a gun from firing is to jam your finger behind the trigger, which, again, is pretty hard to do. Grabbing the slide of a semi-automatic pistol will prevent it from firing, if it takes the weapon out-of-battery. The only thing keeping the breech closed is a recoil spring, housed in the slide. If the slide is pulled back even a fraction of an inch (against the pressure of this spring), and kept in that state, then the weapon cannot fire. The trigger disconnect will prevent the trigger from engaging the sear, and even if it didn’t, the firing pin wouldn’t reach the primer of the cartridge. You are correct to note that merely grasping the slide will not prevent the weapon from firing. ETA: Another possibility is blocking the hammer. The Sig-Sauer P229 has an external hammer, if part of Brown’s hand ended up between the hammer and the slide, this would also prevent the weapon from firing. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/87 "2014-11-26T14:06:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Grabbing the slide of a semi-automatic pistol will prevent it from firing, if it takes the weapon out-of-battery. > > … > > ETA: Another possibility is blocking the hammer. The Sig-Sauer P229 has an external hammer, if part of Brown’s hand ended up between the hammer and the slide, this would also prevent the weapon from firing. Yes, thank you for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/88 "2014-11-26T14:13:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > As I understand it, Wilson backed up when he realized that these two jaywalkers might be the perps from the strongarm robbery. Brown closed Wilson’s car door when Wilson attempted to exit his vehicle and the fight was on. It’s unclear how far Brown traveled to reached Wilson’s vehicle and force the door closed. 3 feet? 10 feet? One witness said that Wilson literally bumped into Brown and Johnson when he backed up, meaning Brown would have had to travel 0 feet. Dorian Johnson testified that they had to step out of the way… to paraphrase, “It’s not like we had to jump out of the way, but we had to step quickly, like one step back.” So far I’ve found no contradictory statements, so I’ll accept this part of the narrative and state that Brown did not have to approach the door. Of course, Wilson says that Brown used his body to force his door closed, and Johnson says that Brown was just standing there and Wilson (foolishly and perhaps comically) tried to open his door into Brown. No other witnesses describe the door opening, and given the two conflicting accounts, I’d recommend disregarding Brown’s supposed intent here. Suffice it to say that Wilson backed up right next to Brown and couldn’t get out of the truck because Brown’s body was impeding egress. (If nothing else, if Brown was interested in complying he could have backed up.) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/89 "2014-11-26T14:16:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The kerfs cut into the slide (as grips) are like cheese graters. They’ll take skin off but there is little space to leave a good print. The grip of a gun is usually textured to help hold onto to it which makes it a poor source of prints. Most slides are laser engraved on both sides with the name of the gun and model number so there’s very little real estate that allows for a good print. Point of fact, the detective did not cite the surface of the gun as a reason for not wanting to lift prints. In fact, he says that “It would be different if this gun was like this and someone just came up, other than the officer, and touched it.” In other words, if there wasn’t a _struggle_, they’d be able to lift prints, but given the nature of the described contact they didn’t expect to get any “fine ridge detail.” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/90 "2014-11-26T14:23:58Z")
Grand Jury Volume 10 A detective is describing the Sig Sauer pistol, specifically, what can we learn from the case ejection pattern (not much), stovepiping (failure to eject the spent casing), obstructing the hammer (yes, possible, thank you **Human Action** ). “If you had the hammer obstructed and it did not fire, this firearm is designed to function with another pull of the trigger.” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/91 "2014-11-26T14:47:26Z")
Grand Jury Volume 11 Skimming through these fast, I’m probably missing stuff. One witness had told the FBI that Michael Brown was walking towards Wilson, now says that he definitely was not walking towards Wilson. Another witness had given statement to the FBI, but now says that she didn’t see the shooting and just repeated what her boyfriend saw because people in the neighborhood told her to give a statement. A drug examiner testifies about the weed found on Michael Brown’s body (1.5 grams). It was weed, science proves it. The prosecutors ask if it was laced with butane, but that wasn’t tested. They talk about the effects of marijuana. Sounds like they’re kinda pushing for the “reefer madness” verdict… Latent examiner is up now. No usable fingerprints on Wilson’s gun belt. 5 fingerprints lifted from the door of the police cruiser. One was Wilson’s, two are unknown, two are unusable. So, no prints from Michael Brown anywhere. Witness says that Michael Brown was walking towards Wilson with hands up, then picked up pace after he was shot. Next witness says Brown may have been charging. I think this is Witness 48, the minivan lady. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/92 "2014-11-26T15:11:17Z")
Grand Jury Volume 12 Witness says that Brown was running and stumbled as they he was hit in the leg, he turned and took 3 or 4 steps towards Wilson with his hands at his side, and then was gunned down. Short testimony. Special Agent testifies about people he’d interviewed on the day of the shooting. Not sure why, maybe no transcripts and they wouldn’t come in? Says they saw Brown walking towards Wilson. Witness who saw the shooting in his rear view mirror, didn’t mention that Brown had his hands up in his statement but says so now. The prosecutor tries to rattle him a little, but he’s cool. He says in his opinion it was excessive force because Brown was running away. “What do you think should have happened, do you think he should have let Michael Brown just run away? You didn’t here anything being said like stop or you didn’t hear what was going on?” “Halt, none of that.” “Do you feel like the police officer should have just let Michael Brown run away and get away and not try to stop him even if he did break the law?” “Somewhat, and the reason why I say that is because if he would have let him get away, if he was shot at any time, he would have been found. Had the police have swarmed in, they would have got hi even if he would have run, even if he would have got away, they would have captured him.” Indeed. Next witness was a landscaping foreman working a job in the area. He’s clearly describing a scene with much detail, in which there were 3 uniformed police officers running after Michael Brown. Uhh… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/93 "2014-11-26T16:08:46Z")
Grand Jury Volume 13 Witness 34, the one who says Brown was walking toward Wilson (not running) but seemed to think the shooting was justified. Describes Michael Brown as punching a couple times through the window. “A few times.” Wilson “had ahold of Mike real close through the window and the officer, both of them struggle to hit one another.” He says Brown put his hands on the trunk of a car for “maybe a minute and a half, two minutes maybe.” (?!) He saw Brown take 2 or 3 steps towards Wilson and then turned his attention away from them. Clarifying now that he didn’t literally mean 2 minutes. Says when Brown walked toward Wilson it wasn’t aggressive. Says he didn’t see Brown reach for a weapon or anything. And now, she brings up his statement where he said Wilson was right to be nervous when Brown was walking back towards him. He says Brown should have gotten on the ground or something, talks about how to act with the police (aka, “the talk”). Says he might have shot Brown in the legs if he were the cop. Next witness is a friend, talks about Brown on a personal level. I skimmed. Next witness is another one of the workers in the area. Or rather, the foreman, he’s got a BA from Webster. Talks a lot about the pot-leaf-socks. Q: Did he appear at the time you saw him to be a threat to the officer when he was being shot, when he was coming toward the officer? A: No. Q: Okay. Did he appear to be coming toward the officer in an aggressive way? A: I mean, that’s subjective. Q: I’m talking your opinion? A: See, I kind of have a mixed opinion on it. Q: Okay. A: I take the hands going down and kind of moving quicker towards the cop as either I’m falling to my death or okay, you’ve already shot me a couple times, I’m coming at you. Q: So it could be either of those. So when he had his hands up, what was your impression then when he was saying okay, okay, okay? A: Initially I was like okay, he’s giving up, you know, that was my impression. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/94 "2014-11-26T16:09:37Z")
> [@](#): > > … “What do you think should have happened, do you think he should have let Michael Brown just run away? You didn’t here anything being said like stop or you didn’t hear what was going on?” “Halt, none of that.” “Do you feel like the police officer should have just let Michael Brown run away and get away and not try to stop him even if he did break the law?” “Somewhat, and the reason why I say that is because if he would have let him get away, if he was shot at any time, he would have been found. Had the police have swarmed in, they would have got hi even if he would have run, even if he would have got away, they would have captured him.” Indeed… Wait,what? The prosecuting attorney is _arguing_ with the witness? What the fuck? How in the world is the witnesses opinion on the proper conduct of a policeman relevant? The Hell is going on, here? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/95 "2014-11-26T16:30:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait,what? The prosecuting attorney is _arguing_ with the witness? What the fuck? How in the world is the witnesses opinion on the proper conduct of a policeman relevant? The Hell is going on, here? To be honest, I don’t think the prosecutors do this enough. They’re very big on forcing the witnesses to describe the nature of Brown’s movement – was he standing still, walking towards Wilson, stumbling, running, charging? Where were his hands? But then they usually stop there and let whatever impression they want to linger over the jury. If this were a normal trial, that would be appropriate. The jury is a finder a fact, and witnesses who are not trained in police conduct should not be testifying to that effect. But this is a grand jury, and I think the opinion of the witnesses is important. At trial, it would come down to whether or not a reasonable person would fear for their life in that situation. And we have several witnesses who saw the whole thing who can tell us what a reasonable person in that situation would think. Sure, they weren’t standing in the same spot as Wilson, but of all the people in the world who can tell us how a reasonable person might interpret what went on that street, these witnesses are the best we’ve got. Exchanges like this have been pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/96 "2014-11-26T16:34:44Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > To be honest, I don’t think the prosecutors do this enough. They’re very big on forcing the witnesses to describe the nature of Brown’s movement – was he standing still, walking towards Wilson, stumbling, running, charging? Where were his hands? But then they usually stop there and let whatever impression they want to linger over the jury. If this were a normal trial, that would be appropriate. The jury is a finder a fact, and witnesses who are not trained in police conduct should not be testifying to that effect. > > But this is a grand jury, and I think the opinion of the witnesses is important. At trial, it would come down to whether or not a reasonable person would fear for their life in that situation. And we have several witnesses who saw the whole thing who can tell us what a reasonable person in that situation would think. Sure, they weren’t standing in the same spot as Wilson, but of all the people in the world who can tell us how a reasonable person might interpret what went on that street, these witnesses are the best we’ve got. > > Exchanges like this have been pretty rare. The jurors on the Grand Jury are allowed to ask questions of anyone testifying. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/97 "2014-11-26T16:38:10Z")
Indeed they are. The jurors. See the word, “jurors”? I give you two words, “prosecutor” and “juror”. Which one is _not_ a juror? Take your time… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/98 "2014-11-26T16:46:50Z")
Grand Jury Volume 14 First Witness is one who saw Wilson walk up to a prone Brown and execute him. The story changes several times, the prosecutor calls her out on it. This must be very frustrating for the jury. What a waste of time. Second witness is Witness 38, very short testimony because she basically saw nothing. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/99 "2014-11-26T16:48:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The jurors on the Grand Jury are allowed to ask questions of anyone testifying. Sure. And to be fair, I have no idea when the jurors are asking questions because their names are redacted. A lot of the exchanges are cryptic because of all the editing in these transcripts. But yes, if the jurors really wanted the opinion of the witnesses they could ask. That doesn’t mean I think the prosecutors shouldn’t ask as a default. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596/100 "2014-11-26T17:30:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Indeed they are. The jurors. See the word, “jurors”? I give you two words, “prosecutor” and “juror”. Which one is _not_ a juror? Take your time… Prosecutors are also allowed to ask questions. Was that unclear? I pointed out that jurors are allowed to ask questions in Grand Jury proceedings because that is different from a normal court proceeding in which jurors are not allowed to ask questions of the witnesses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-discussion-thread/705596.md?page=6)