Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread

Sure, except we know that at some point he was moving towards Wilson. He could have been running backwards, come to a stop, and started moving forward, as far as the physical evidence is concerned.

So do you want to keep this discussion limited to the physical evidence? Or are you OK with people injection facts that aren’t in evidence? Make up your mind, because you seem to want to call people on certain things and then throw out stuff like “He couldn’t have stopped that fast because he was running flat out” without expecting to be called on it yourself.

Running in socks, even.

Right, so a Chevy Tahoe is like 17 feet long, which means Brown would have been 2 car lengths behind the car. I’m pretty sure anyone looking at the amatuer footage from minutes after the shooting could have come to the conclusion that Brown’s body was more than 2 car lengths from the car. And yet, it took until September for our intrepid journalist to notice the discrepency? Except he didn’t even notice, it had to be pointed out to him!

Why could that be? Because he had bigger details to focus on, like the fact that Brown was unarmed, had his hands up, was surrendering, that his body laid in the street for 4 hours. Everyone was focusing on things other than forensic details in the aftermath of the shooting. If the Daily Kos didn’t catch this glaring error for a month, I don’t greatly fault people who were higher up in the chain of command to catch it either. Which brings me to…

I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to here with the ME, but I’ll point out again that the crime scene detective took measurements the day of the shooting, hours afterwards in fact, when Michael Brown’s body was still on the pavement. These were recorded and would have been available to everyone working closely on the case. They were presented to the grand jury on day 2. They were available online this week for everyone to see.

Evidence was gathered properly, it was presented properly, and it was up to the grand jury to sort out why nearly every single witness then stated a shorter distance. I have a hard time accepting any sort of conspiracy here, but to the extent that there might be one, I’d say take it to another thread.

Not available, apparently, to Chief Belmar of St. Louis County:

As to the ME:
**
Crime Scene Medical Examiner Took No Measurements, Photos of Brown**

Yes, and I’m sure he regrets not checking those measurements before the press conference. It’s not like he pulled 35 feet out of his ass, that’s what witnesses were reporting. I’m sure the Chief didn’t actually go to the scene to confirm for himself. But the measurements were indeed taken and presented to the grand jury, so that’s that.

And yet photos and measurements were both taken, just not by the ME. That’s good enough for me. If some internal policy was broken by having the crime scene investigator take the measurements instead of the ME, I’m not aware of it, nor do I see how it really has bearing on the grand jury.

Contradictory eyewitness testimony is not unusual. The forensic evidence is much more exact. After all of the evidence had been presented, the grand jury had a decision to make. Their decision was to not recommend charging Wilson with violating any Missouri law.

After the fact, people can say, “But what about this” or “What about that” but it appears that the grand jury was subjected to all of the evidence available. They were in the best position to judge the evidence and decide the future of this case.

There have been many erroneous reports made by officials and especially by the media. That doesn’t make those statements true. Posts in “The Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Discussion Thread” have pointed out that measurements were taken and presented, under oath, to the grand jury.

CNN, MSNBC, and various other media outlets and alleged reporters are not under oath to present the truth or to present all sides of an issue.

Keep in mind that when you offer the opinion of the grand jury, you are not referring to a singular entity with one opinion. Point of fact, if eight of the twelve grand jurors voted to indict, the decision would have been recorded that the grand jury did not indict. While this technically true, it glides past that caveat without so much as a nod.

And if we have all the testimony and evidence that they did, as well as some other facts that were not presented, then now we are in a better position. Perhaps they were in the best position, but not any longer.

What facts do you have that were not presented to the jury?

(post shortened)

Are you referring to the “other facts” that were created by CNN’s selection of interviewees, the chants of the racist Al Sharpton-types, the lies that Brown’s body lay uncovered for 4 hours?

Do you consider the actions of the rock and bottle throwers or the arsonists to be “other facts”?

Brown chose to strongarm rob a store. Brown chose to attack a police officer. Brown ran away from the officer as fast as Brown’s sandaled feet would allow him to. Brown even outran his sandals. Brown turned and advanced on an officer who was pointing a firearm at him. Brown died because he made a lot of bad decisions that day.

OK, this is going to be a long post. I’m going to write up what I think happened on August 9th in Ferguson based on the totality of the evidence presented to the grand jury. I want to point out that I went through about 3 months of testimony in 2 days. I was primarily looking for new evidence that hadn’t been presented in the media, things that the grand jury seemed to think were especially important, what instructions the grand jury received, and how credible the witnesses seemed on the stand. I think I did a pretty good job, but may have missed things. My opinion is obviously not the final say, but I’ve approached this with an open mind and I think I’m being fair to both sides.

Note: this account includes my own conjecture, so please don’t quote indivual sentences and say “cite!?!” like a jackass, because I might be speculating. If you’re curious about where I got something, ask and I’ll clarify if it’s speculation or based on evidence, or both.
The Robbery

Michael Brown stole a carton of Swishers from the QuikTrip at the corner of Canfield Dr. and W. FLorissant Ave. Shortly following the theft, someone called 911 and reported a description of Brown, Johnson, and what was stolen. Brown and Johnson began walking down Canfield Dr. Their destination was either to Johnson or Brown’s apartment, they hadn’t yet decided. The two divied up the boxes of cigarillos. Johnson put his boxes in his pockets in order to conceal them; Brown did not. They could have stayed out of public view; if you look at the satellite view of the street, you’ll see that there are houses and a field they could have chosen to walk through, and once they hit Coppercreek Rd. they could have gotten off the main road altogether. Johnson would have preferred this, but he followed Brown’s lead in walking down the middle of the street in a manner which Johnson described as “bold.”

Brown’s attitude here is important. The QT is the closest convenience store to his apartment, it was broad daylight on a Saturday, and yet he made no effort to conceal his crime, even when he saw the police.
The Police Respond

Darren Wilson was finishing up a call further down Canfield Ct. when he offered his assistance on the robbery call. Nobody responded, but he heard the description over the radio. Nevertheless, when he saw Brown and Johnson walking down the middle of the street, he did not immediately peg them as suspects, perhaps because their behavior was too nonchalant. He stopped to order them onto the sidewalk, either politely or rudely depending on who you believe. Not interested in diverting his attention to further harass jaywalkers, Wilson began driving away when he noticed the Swisher cigarillos Brown was holding. He put the Tahoe in reverse and backed up alongside Brown and Johnson, stopping at an angle in the street, close enough to the pair that they had to step out of the way. Brown ended up closest to the driver’s door. Wilson instructed Brown to approach, and Brown stepped forward a step or two until he was standing right by the door.
The Altercation

Wilson attempted to open the door, but Brown’s body was too close and it latched closed again. It’s unclear what happened next so this is going to be extremely heavy on the speculation. Brown put his hand on the exterior window sill. Perhaps Brown found it humorous that the police officer put his car in a position that he couldn’t open the door, and then put his hand to block the door as if to say, “It’s your dumb ass fault that you can’t get out of the car, so let’s talk here like this.” Wilson reached up to push Brown’s arm out of the way, and Brown pushed back to keep his hand or arm on the door. Wilson, not expecting any resistance over a simple stop for $48 worth of stolen property, was jolted into action by adrenaline. With Brown’s hand now entering the vehicle and making contact with his body, Wilson grabs Brown’s right arm and pins it to the inside of the door.

Brown, still not viewing his own actions as “resisting arrest,” upset that his arm is being pinned, and possibly in pain, hands his cigarillos to his friend to free up his left hand. He moves his head and shoulders into the police cruiser and punches Wilson with his left hand in the right side of the face. The punch was hard, because Brown is a big dude, but not that hard, because it’s hard to swing when you’re leaning into a car like that. Nevertheless, Wilson, feeling trapped in the car and dazed due to the assault, makes the determination to draw his weapon. Rather than prompting Brown to cease resisting, the sight of the gun causes Brown to go on the defensive. Brown pulls his right hand up to block the gun’s trajectory upward. Wilson doesn’t know what Brown is doing reaching out with his hand on his gun, so he tries to fire. It does not. He tries again and it does not. Finally, he pushes back from the door to free the gun from Brown’s hand, and as soon as he does it goes off. Brown is shot in the hand from 6-9 inches away. The window shatters when the projectile enters the door.

Both Brown and Wilson are stunned by this. Brown’s hand is still in the car, bleeding, and too close to the gun for Wilson’s comfort, so he pulls the trigger again, hitting nothing. Brown runs.
The Chase

Brown runs east down Canfield Rd. Wilson opens the door, then pauses to call into his radio that shots were fired and/or backup was needed. He takes off after Brown with his gun at his side. Brown is maybe 75 feet from the police cruiser; one of his sandals had fallen off a few yards from the police cruiser, and the second falls off further down. Wilson shouts at him to “Stop! Stop! Stop!” Brown continues to run, in socks, for another 30 yards. He steps on a rock, flinches from the pain, and decides that he’s not going to outrun the cop, not with his physical (weight) condition, lack of shoes, and gunshot wound. He is approximately 45-50 feet away from Wilson at this point.
The Critical Moments

Brown executes his next series of moves quickly. He stops and whips around. Dorian Johnson testifies that he says “I don’t have a gun” in an angry manner. Based on other witness testimony, I believe he instead said “Okay, okay, okay,” but still in an angry manner. He begins walking back towards Wilson while putting his hands up, palms out, at a shoulder level but with his arms at a 45 degree angle as if to say both “Look, I don’t have a gun” and “calm down” in the universal “simmer down now” hand motion. He is trying to surrender, but he’s not hiding his mood and he’s moving too quickly. He lowers his hands thinking that he’s already made his intentions clear.

After moving toward Wilson about 10 feet, or a few steps, Wilson makes a choice. Michael Brown has already resisted arrest, assaulted him, and put his hand on his weapon, and now he’s walking towards him, looking angry, with his hands at his sides. He opens fire, 6 times, hitting Brown critically in his chest, puncturing his lung and causing his chest cavity to fill with blood. Brown is now 30 feet from Wilson. Blood splatters on the ground from an arm wound. Brown feels like he’s been kicked in the chest by a horse, he bends over at the waist and begins moving his hand up to his belly. This puts him off balance, and he instinctively begins moving faster as his legs move out to try to catch his balance. He picks up speed and his head drops, pointing directly at Wilson. He is 15 feet away. Wilson takes a few steps backward and fires 4 more times, hitting Brown in the forehead and blowing out his right eye, then fatally hitting him in the top of the head. Brown takes 2 or 3 more steps during this final volley, and at the final head shot goes limp and drops to the pavement like a rock. A large quantity of blood flies about 3 or 4 feet forward, like a balloon popping. Wilson is left standing about 6-8 feet from the body.
The Aftermath

Once Brown turned around, he and Wilson were facing each other. From Wilson’s perspective, Brown slowly picked up speed and lowered his head over the course of a 40-45 foot “charge.” I think Wilson saw what he saw, but I don’t think he appreciates that the wounds inflicted by his first six shots were directly responsible for his own perception that he was being charged. Other witnesses saw Brown with his hands up or at his side or at his belly, depending on where they were looking, when they were looking there, and just by chance, what visual was seared into their memory. Watching Brown’s eyeball and head essentially explode must have been extremely traumatic. I believe this visual trauma accounts for the varying details of Brown’s hand and body position, as well as the many incorrect accounts of how far Brown and Wilson ran from the police cruiser. A 20 second foot chase suddenly doesn’t seem very important when you just saw someone die in an incredibly graphic manner.

I believe the vast majority of the witnesses gave truthful statements, although many of them did not see crucial parts of the encounter and therefore their statements were less compelling. The few witnesses who lied were exposed on the stand.
The Grand Jury

What I’ve struggled the most with is whether or not the grand jury came to the right decision. To say that the grand jury was forced into an unusual situation is to put it mildly. They were given a lot of evidence, some of it solid, some of it garbage, and they had to sort out what was important on their own. There were no opening statements, no closing statements. No cross examination of any experts or witnesses. They weren’t given instructions until the day before their deliberations started.

I think that Darren Wilson acted hastily when he opened fire on Michael Brown in the street, considering Brown was unarmed and roughly 40-45 feet away. I don’t think he gave Brown clear instructions, such as “Get on the ground or I will shoot you right now.” Legally, I don’t know that he needed to if he felt his life was in danger. I don’t know if Brown would have complied.

I don’t think Wilson would have been convicted at a trial. I think I would feel better if he’d had one, but I’m going to stop short of saying that the grand jury made the wrong call. My opinion is that this shooting exists in a much debated legal gray area, where I think someone died unecessarily but at the same time I don’t think, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a law was broken. Do I think a law was probably broken? Sometimes I think yes, and sometimes I think no. I really don’t know what I’d do if I were sitting on the grand jury. I don’t think I’d want to.

Actually, it is a singular entity with a singular opinion. This isn’t like an appeal court, where dissenting opinions are shared. The grand jury, as an entity in accordance with establishedd procedures, provided a single opinion.

(nm)

here is yet another link to the docs. minus NPR’s comments/editorials on the topic Documents Released in the Ferguson Case - The New York Times

Thanks for all your work, ** steronz **. Apart from quibbles here and there, I’d say that’s probably a fair take on things.

Are you suggesting Wilson should have waited until Brown was so close that shooting him would not stop him reaching Wilson?

I don’t think Wilson should have waited so long as to put himself at physical risk, if that’s what you’re asking. Other than that, I stand by my assessment.

eta: I just wanted to edit this to say that I understand what you’re getting at, but I don’t know the answer. If Brown were 300 feet away and Wilson started firing, but due to bad aim and/or Brown being able to absorb a lot of hits he was able to cover 297 feet before dropping dead, would you say that Wilson was justified in shooting an unarmed man 100 yards away? Because he “almost” got to him? That seems a bit silly. At some point we have to take a step back and look at where they both were when the decision was made to start firing, not where they both ended up.

Keep in mind that 20 feet is getting into “He reaches you before you pull the trigger” range. Being unarmed means that Wilson could not assume without evidence that Brown was hostile, but the fact that Brown had already punched him in the face once made it reasonable to assume the worst when Brown started advancing on him again.

Nice summation, steronz. My only question is about Wilson’s command to “Stop”, which I think you omitted. I know I recall reading about it somewhere. So, my question is, when did he issue that command to Brown? When he was fleeing? When he was approaching? Both?

Tueller, right?

If so, then no, 20 feet is getting into “He reaches you before you pull the gun out of the holster” range.

I don’t think Tueller ever established what the “danger close” distance was with a drawn and aimed sidearm.

CMC fnord!