# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 102
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2021 "2014-08-22T18:00:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Darren Wilson fundraising campaign has become hub of racism and hate.](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/22/darren_wilson_gofundme_campaign_has_become_hub_of_racism_and_hate/) In these situations, most people always fall back to their respective side. Damn the facts, it’s all about their side coming out on top. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2022 "2014-08-22T18:00:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Darren Wilson fundraising campaign has become hub of racism and hate.](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/22/darren_wilson_gofundme_campaign_has_become_hub_of_racism_and_hate/) Not surprising (although of course depressing) to see comments like “thanks for taking out the trash”. However, I also disagree with the following quote on the other side, from _PookleBlinky_: > [@](#): > > The CEO of @gofundme is fine with making money off people rewarding a man for murder, as long as they don’t produce screencaps of vileness Providing a legal defense for someone ACCUSED of murder is very very far from “rewarding a man for murder”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2023 "2014-08-22T18:09:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And this just in from our good friends at Daily Kos: > > [An incident report on the killing of Michael Brown is finally released ... and tells us nothing](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/22/1323788/-An-incident-report-on-the-killing-of-Michael-Brown-is-finally-released-and-tells-us-nothing#comments) > > The incident report has been released. According to this, it tells us _squadoosh_, except that it apparently took nine days to accomplish that. The less information that comes out before a potential trial, the better. Unless for some reason you don’t want him to get a fair trial. I can’t imagine that… Neither you nor anyone else has a right to know the details of an ongoing investigation. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2024 "2014-08-22T18:12:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And this just in from our good friends at Daily Kos: > > [An incident report on the killing of Michael Brown is finally released ... and tells us nothing](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/22/1323788/-An-incident-report-on-the-killing-of-Michael-Brown-is-finally-released-and-tells-us-nothing#comments) > > The incident report has been released. According to this, it tells us _squadoosh_, except that it apparently took nine days to accomplish that. The _Saint Louis County Police Department Incident Report 14-43984 - Original_ has been released. There are reports from other police departments, as well as the FBI, that haven’t been released yet. I assume other reports will be released pending permission from the SA’s/DA’s office. The grand jury is still hearing evidence. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2025 "2014-08-22T19:00:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let’s test the theory. > > [Jonathan Boucher](http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2014/feb/16/jonathan-boucher/top-rhode-island-democrat-says-republicans-us-hous/), the Executive Director of the Rhode Island Democratic Party, claimed in an interview that the Republican leadership in the House has refused to pass a jobs bill. > > Therefore, the left-wing supports ridiculous defenses, and lies severely? > > Certainly _Boucher_ doesn’t cover himself with honor there. > > The conclusion that the entire left wing can be sullied with his comment just doesn’t seem fair to me. Yeah, his backing off wasn’t exactly impressive. But his original point was good. Those GOP ‘job’ bills, by and large, had about as much to do with creating jobs as a program of walking from one’s seat in front of the TV to either the fridge or the restroom during each commercial break while watching football resembles an exercise program. No question, that walk constitutes ‘exercise’ but not enough to make a dent in one’s lack of fitness. And what PolitEquate (Motto: “Both Sides Do It”) has to say isn’t worth paying attention to. They’re better than WorldNetDaily as a cite, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2026 "2014-08-22T21:02:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just to introduce some food for thought: > > [http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm) > > 1. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only > > (2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested > > **(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or** > > (b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or > > (c) May otherwise endanger life \*\*or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay. \*\* IANAL but battery on a police officer I am about 95% sure is a felony. Under the assumption that some kind of physical altercation took place between brown and the officer, 1 definitely and possibly 2 criteria are met. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2027 "2014-08-22T21:25:41Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > IANAL but battery on a police officer I am about 95% sure is a felony. Under the assumption that some kind of physical altercation took place between brown and the officer, 1 definitely and possibly 2 criteria are met. Notice that you only need 1 met. That’s why I posted it. According to MO statutes, the police officer was fully justified in using deadly force to arrest Brown, even if Brown was running away at the time. Yet, apparently, there are SC decisions that say otherwise. Thing is, the MO statute is the one in force in MO, and was not changed due to the SC decision. So - is the MO statute the one in force or not? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2028 "2014-08-22T22:32:25Z")
Ah, good, so it was _legal_ to gun him down. We are much reassured. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2029 "2014-08-22T22:34:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Notice that you only need 1 met. That’s why I posted it. According to MO statutes, the police officer was fully justified in using deadly force to arrest Brown, even if Brown was running away at the time. Yet, apparently, there are SC decisions that say otherwise. Thing is, the MO statute is the one in force in MO, and was not changed due to the SC decision. So - is the MO statute the one in force or not? That is a really good question. My best guess is that the Missouri statute would be read in compliance with _Garner_. But I really don’t know the answer. _Garner_ concluded that a law that allowed shooting fleeing felons violated the Fourth Amendment. But it did so by way of deciding a civil suit against the police. Now we have a criminal law, and a notional suspect who could point at the law and say that it allowed his actions, and criminal laws must be construed strictly against the state. I haven’t researched the issue, and frankly I have no certainty about how that argument would play out. My sense is that Garner would control; the statute authorizing the shooting of a felon would be read harmoniously with Garner’s limits, and the officer could not rely upon it for a defense. But that’s a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2030 "2014-08-22T22:39:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I really don’t know the answer. _Garner_ concluded that a law that allowed shooting fleeing felons violated the Fourth Amendment. But it did so by way of deciding a civil suit against the police. But here’s the thing: the law may violate the Fourth Amendment, but it is the law - until it is changed. It hasn’t been changed. It may be changed now, but not retroactively. The officer (stipulate for the sake of argument) was complying with current MO law. How can he be convicted of a crime? ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2031 "2014-08-22T22:45:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That is a really good question. > > My best guess is that the Missouri statute would be read in compliance with _Garner_. > > But I really don’t know the answer. _Garner_ concluded that a law that allowed shooting fleeing felons violated the Fourth Amendment. But it did so by way of deciding a civil suit against the police. > > Now we have a criminal law, and a notional suspect who could point at the law and say that it allowed his actions, and criminal laws must be construed strictly against the state. > > I haven’t researched the issue, and frankly I have no certainty about how that argument would play out. My sense is that Garner would control; the statute authorizing the shooting of a felon would be read harmoniously with Garner’s limits, and the officer could not rely upon it for a defense. > > But that’s a guess. Seems like this whole line of argument is moot on either side. Brown wasn’t gunned down fleeing. Either he was killed from a standing position or, if you want to believe Wilson’s implausible story, charging at him. Whichever you pick, the Garner decision is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2032 "2014-08-22T22:55:43Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Seems like this whole line of argument is moot on either side. Brown wasn’t gunned down fleeing. Either he was killed from a standing position or, if you want to believe Wilson’s implausible story, charging at him. Whichever you pick, the Garner decision is irrelevant. I don’t think Wilson’s story is implausible, but even if you accept it, it is still pretty clear that Wilson made at least one shot, maybe two, at Brown as he was running away. That is against the law per Garner, but fully lawful per MO statutes. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2033 "2014-08-22T23:40:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t think Wilson’s story is implausible, but even if you accept it, it is still pretty clear that Wilson made at least one shot, maybe two, at Brown as he was running away. That is against the law per Garner, but fully lawful per MO statutes. Still irrelevant to this case. None of the shots Wilson allegedly fired from behind seems to have landed. Keep in kind, Wilson’s unofficial story is that he actually DIDN’T fire at Brown from behind. So you ARE kinda calling his story implausible, if you’re saying he did. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2034 "2014-08-22T23:45:56Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Seems like this whole line of argument is moot on either side. Brown wasn’t gunned down fleeing. Either he was killed from a standing position or, if you want to believe Wilson’s implausible story, charging at him. Whichever you pick, the Garner decision is irrelevant. I was answering **Terr** ’s question, one in which he explicitly said that the facts were stipulated for the sake of argument. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2035 "2014-08-23T00:38:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That is a really good question. > > … > > I haven’t researched the issue, and frankly I have no certainty about how that argument would play out. My sense is that Garner would control; the statute authorizing the shooting of a felon would be read harmoniously with Garner’s limits, and the officer could not rely upon it for a defense. > > But that’s a guess. I would imagine MO has far more developed history/precedents WRT officer involved shootings over the years…im just not much of a legal researcher. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2036 "2014-08-23T07:19:14Z")
I want to apologize to everyone if I suggested that any of the Ferguson police were racist or incompetent. In fact, we learn that one 20±year veteran of the St. Louis police is an expert in evolving constitutional law, and supports diversity. Read a [News story about Dan Page](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/police-officer-video-relieved-black-people-ferguson-dan-page), or watch a [News video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K10Eoe2x9U). He is also distinguished scholar, who [gives insights about the troubles facing America](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gxp49O3nCA). Twenty-plus years on the St. Louis Police force! They must be proud of him. With such fine men serving in the St. Louis police, I think we can put to rest the idea that they could somehow be to blame for this crisis. But wouldn’t you know? Almost one-third of the comments on the YouTubes condemn Dan Page rather than support him. :smack: And to top it off, the Police just placed him on leave, after two decades of outstanding service, due to pressure from the real bigots. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2037 "2014-08-23T12:16:30Z")
Shut up you fucking troll. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2038 "2014-08-23T13:09:12Z")
Are you addressing **septimus** , or the racist nutcase cop he’s referring to? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2039 "2014-08-23T13:23:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Shut up you fucking troll. > > Regards, > Shodan Or you’ll… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2040 "2014-08-23T13:36:41Z")
Who said I was going to do anything? He’s a fucking troll (and liar) and should shut up. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=101) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=103)