# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 109
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2161 "2014-08-25T17:48:20Z")
Here, I will help **Elvis** out - he’s apparently too lazy to do the work: [This involves an off-duty policeman, so not really like Ferguson, but close enough](http://www.texasmonthly.com/daily-post/rare-move-conroe-police-officer-was-convicted-manslaughter) Note how rare this is: “If indictments against police officers are rare, convictions are almost unheard of. Numerous officials said that they could not recall a law enforcement officer ever being criminally convicted for an on-duty shooting in Travis County.” [This is closer](http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Ex-Police-Officer-Found-Guilty-Involuntary-Manslaughter-188842921.html) [So is this](http://newsok.com/jury-finds-del-city-police-captain-guilty-of-first-degree-manslaughter-gives-four-year-prison-sentence/article/3908689) I see very few cases though. Maybe a dozen can be scrounged up for the last decade. Probably less. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2162 "2014-08-25T17:49:12Z")
It’s the fucking police. Are you guys serious? > [@Steophan](#): > > But, even if we count all of them, we have a tiny amount of cases which, when investigate, turn out to be murder. Now, obviously, even one is too many, but as it turns out the majority of police shootings turn out to be justified, and those that don’t fall short of murder. > > There is no epidemic of police murders, of young black men or of anyone else. What we really have is the fact that, as it turns out, nearly all police shootings turn out to be justified, or result in administrative suspensions, or result in the firing of the officer and an out-of-court settlement, and no criminal prosecution of the police officer by the local district attorney’s office. If the sum and substance of what you’re trying to argue here is that these incidents don’t result in criminal convictions, so there are no murders from a sort of statistical point of view, well, that’s true. Do you think that’s really compelling under the circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2163 "2014-08-25T17:57:05Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What we really have is the fact that, as it turns out, nearly all police shootings turn out to be justified, or result in administrative suspensions, or result in the firing of the officer and an out-of-court settlement, and no criminal prosecution of the police officer by the local district attorney’s office. > > If the sum and substance of what you’re trying to argue here is that these incidents don’t result in criminal convictions, so there are no murders from a sort of statistical point of view, well, that’s true. Do you think that’s really compelling under the circumstances? I am not sure what you’re trying to imply. Can you clarify? I mean, you’re hinting at stuff without saying it. Is it that the justice system in the US is incredibly corrupt, and if it became “fair”, there would be hundreds of policemen in jail for murder? ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2164 "2014-08-25T17:57:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > OK, [here’s a Google dump](https://www.google.com/#q=police+officers+convicted+of+manslaughter) for you. Take your pick. Count them, there aren’t that many. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2165 "2014-08-25T18:13:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am not sure what you’re trying to imply. Can you clarify? I mean, you’re hinting at stuff without saying it. Is it that the justice system in the US is incredibly corrupt, and if it became “fair”, there would be hundreds of policemen in jail for murder? I’m with JC here, and I don’t see the point of this whole discussion. Everyone agrees that police are very rarely convicted for improper killings. The question is whether this is because the criminal justice system at all levels is overly deferential to police. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2166 "2014-08-25T18:16:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m with JC here, and I don’t see the point of this whole discussion. > > Everyone agrees that police are very rarely convicted for improper killings. The question is whether this is because the criminal justice system at all levels is overly deferential to police. I don’t really go for the “overly deferential”. If cops are routinely guilty of murder and walk, that’s not deference. That’s corruption and perversion of the system. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2167 "2014-08-25T18:18:03Z")
[Ferguson’s booming white grievance industry: Fox News, Darren Wilson and friends.](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/25/ferguson%e2%80%99s_booming_white_grievance_industry_fox_news_darren_wilson_and_friends/) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2168 "2014-08-25T18:19:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t really go for the “overly deferential”. If cops are routinely guilty of murder and walk, that’s not deference. That’s corruption and perversion of the system. Whether they’re guilty of murder or not is frequently subject to some degree of uncertainty, and if the system tends to be deferential to them and interpret any ambiguities in their favor they can walk without overt corruption. In any event, that’s not necessarily _my_ claim. But that’s the claim that’s relevant, so pointing to the lack of convictions is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2169 "2014-08-25T18:28:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am not sure what you’re trying to imply. Can you clarify? I mean, you’re hinting at stuff without saying it. Is it that the justice system in the US is incredibly corrupt, and if it became “fair”, there would be hundreds of policemen in jail for murder? I’m not trying to imply anything. I’m asking him if he thinks it’s compelling that the policemen who people are saying are going unchecked in their use of lethal force have not routinely been sent to prison for murder. **Steophan** is demanding proof that police officers have been frequently been convicted of murder in America, as if the complaints that the police get away with murder are somehow dependent on judicial findings that murders occurred, which would require that those officers had not, in fact, gotten away with it, because they were convicted of god damn murder. I suppose I’m hinting that this is stupid; I’ll go ahead and make that explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2170 "2014-08-25T18:38:49Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I’m not trying to imply anything. I’m asking him if he thinks it’s compelling that the policemen who people are saying are going unchecked in their use of lethal force have not routinely been sent to prison for murder. I think it points to one of two things. Either the great majority of the police shootings were justified. Or the justice system in the US is incredibly corrupt. Which one do you pick? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2171 "2014-08-25T18:40:21Z")
I would have thought it was clear that the concern was over the number of actual unjustified killings by police that _don’t_ even get charged. Saying that there is only a “small” number of actual convictions (define small), and therefore that there is no “epidemic”, is merely handwaving. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2172 "2014-08-25T18:44:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think it points to one of two things. Either the great majority of the police shootings were justified. Or the justice system in the US is incredibly corrupt. Which one do you pick? It’s a worthless distinction. I certainly fucking _hope_ the great majority of police shootings are justified. Christ, that’s our standard? Three out of four times, there was some reason to kill 'em? Then there’s your alternative. The US justice system? Corrupt, and particularly corrupt on the matter of racial inequality? The hell you say. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2173 "2014-08-25T18:44:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think it points to one of two things. Either the great majority of the police shootings were justified. Or the justice system in the US is incredibly corrupt. Which one do you pick? I think ineffective would be a more apt descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2174 "2014-08-25T18:47:18Z")
Both can be true. There can be a substantial number of unjustified police shootings even if they’re the minority, \*and \*they can still go uncharged as the system’s participants move to protect each other behind the Blue Line. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2175 "2014-08-25T18:48:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Whether they’re guilty of murder or not is frequently subject to some degree of uncertainty, and if the system tends to be deferential to them and interpret any ambiguities in their favor they can walk without overt corruption. If _anyone_ is accused of murder, and there’s a degree of uncertainty, they must be found not guilty. That’s not something particular to police officers. Now, if you want to argue that not every defendant gets treated as well as they should, but police officers are more likely to get the _correct_ treatment, well, fair enough. You might be right. But you don’t get to call someone a murderer without proof, and it’s only in exceptional cases that you can have that proof about someone who’s been acquitted. OJ being the best modern example. > [@](#): > > In any event, that’s not necessarily _my_ claim. But that’s the claim that’s relevant, so pointing to the lack of convictions is invalid. No, convictions is exactly the correct measure. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2176 "2014-08-25T18:50:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But you don’t get to call someone a murderer without proof, and it’s only in exceptional cases that you can have that proof about someone who’s been acquitted. You’re a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2177 "2014-08-25T18:54:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I would have thought it was clear that the concern was over the number of actual unjustified killings by police that _don’t_ even get charged. Not really, no. If there was sufficient evidence that there was a crime, they’d have been charged. > [@](#): > > Saying that there is only a “small” number of actual convictions (define small), and therefore that there is no “epidemic”, is merely handwaving. Again, no. We have people in this thread - **BobLibDem** is the obvious example - saying outright that the police are murderers. We are trying to refute that, and frankly it looks like we’ve done that. Now, when it comes to “unjustified” killings that aren’t prosecuted, but the police nonetheless discipline the officer and compensate the family, that suggests to me that those police forces, far from being murderous thugs, are holding their officers to a _higher_ standard than the law does. That doesn’t seem to me to be such a bad thing, assuming they aren’t putting them at unnecessary risk. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2178 "2014-08-25T18:55:52Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You’re a murderer. So’s your face. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2179 "2014-08-25T18:56:40Z")
[Linda Chavez: Michael Brown shouldn’t be described as “unarmed” because he was so big.](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/25/fox_contributor_michael_brown_shouldnt_be_described_as_unarmed_because_he_was_so_big/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2180 "2014-08-25T18:59:02Z")
Our definitions of “justifiable” rely heavily on the discretion of the police officer. Frankly, I don’t see how it could be otherwise. Was the suspect aggressive? Threatening? That is a judgement call, one that simply has to be the decision of the person we have licensed to carry and use lethal force on their own judgement. In cases where the use of lethal force is questionable, then that’s pretty much all they can ever be, “questionable”. There is no criminal sanction for questionable, the alleged crime must be explicit and beyond reasonable doubt. And doubt is pretty much built into the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=108) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=110)