# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 112
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2221 "2014-08-26T02:44:14Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But the truth is that most Americans are criminals. You have probably committed felonies, but simply haven’t been caught. The reasons you haven’t been caught are many, but include the kind of neighborhood you live in–the single best predictor of which is race, in many places. It is very likely that you, or at least people you consider to be good people, have experienced a certain kind of privilege in not having been caught for felony crimes, such that you were able to go on living an otherwise upstanding life instead of the death spiral of collateral consequences that is modern criminal justice. This notion that someone who commits a crime is a different and lesser kind of human being is wrong. Criminals aren’t just like you and me. They are you and me. > . Spoken like someone with a guilty conscience who needs to tell themselves “everybody does it!” I’m not a criminal. What have you done to make you fear the police? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2222 "2014-08-26T03:05:29Z")
Dissent. Dress weird. _Be_ weird. Doesn’t take as much as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2223 "2014-08-26T03:06:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Spoken like someone with a guilty conscience who needs to tell themselves “everybody does it!” > > I’m not a criminal. What have you done to make you fear the police? Guess you get to cast the first stone, then. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2224 "2014-08-26T03:06:19Z")
OK, I may regret getting involved in this discussion, but here’s a link to a dash cam video of a police shooting from a few years back. > **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory Now, IMHO, this was unjustified and, in fact, criminal. True, you cannot see what happens immediately prior to the officer pulling his gun (it happens to the right of the view), but it obviously wasn’t anything that caused serious harm. While the officer does seem to have a little trouble running after the “perp”, I suspect his physique has more to do to it than anything else. Now, the officer fired 7 shots in the middle of downtown Bryan, Tx, at 10AM on a Friday morning at a fleeing homeless person (well, he is referred to as homeless, his grandmother witnessed the shooting, so is isn’t like he was totally without support). He hits Mr. Harris as well as a construction worker who was on the job. Both were injured critically but survived, although not without permanent damage. While the police department did conduct an internal investigation, the officer resigned his position the day prior to the report being issued. According to local laws, if the object of the investigation is no longer with the department, such investigations are not released, so the internal investigation is sealed. The officer was no-billed by a grand jury; not a surprise, since you cannot really tell if Mr. Harris “went for the officers gun” as was claimed and the results of the internal investigation could not be presented. Although assaulting an officer and attempting to take his weapon is a Felony in Texas, these charges weren’t even presented to a grand jury (due to lack of evidence). Now, I doubt the Ferguson shooting was anything like this. I just doesn’t match anything I read in any of the news reports. There seems to be just too much reported that supports the officer and not the eye witness versions. But, I am waiting for a final report, since often the news gets it wrong. However, my point is that if a shooting that appears on web cam that clearly shows the officer was pissed-off and was clearly just wanting to shoot the guy gets no-billed by the GJ and is allowed to resign to keep the internal investigation sealed, well, I don’t know what could come out in the final report that would have any effect on what happens to the officer in this case. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2225 "2014-08-26T03:12:00Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > …in the middle of downtown Bryan, Tx,… > . Downtown Bryan, Texas? In the very center of greater metropolitan Bryan? Not some suburb of Bryan, but right in the inner city? ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2226 "2014-08-26T03:27:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Downtown Bryan, Texas? In the very center of greater metropolitan Bryan? Not some suburb of Bryan, but right in the inner city? Well, if you read the article, it says it was near the intersection of Dr. Martin Luther King Boulevard and Texas Avenue. Can’t get much more inner-city that that. For what it is worth, the population of Bryan is 78,000 vs the population of Ferguson (maybe21,000). And, Bryan is the county seat of a county that has a population of nearly 250,000. Sure, not even a quarter of St. Louis county, but if Houston keeps growing, Bryan will be part of it. I don’t think anyone would suggest the downtown area of such a municipality would be a safe place to discharge a firearm, particularly while running. Sure, 10 miles away on Bubba’s farm, but not downtown. Watch the video. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2227 "2014-08-26T03:32:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Perhaps to shoot him in order to halt his flight. And to heck with any innocent bystanders that get hit by all the misses. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2228 "2014-08-26T11:01:33Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Empowering the police to kill suspected criminals based on a small chance of danger violates the principles that keep our country free. A human being is more than the worst thing he has ever done, which is why we require that punishment be proportional to the crime and free from cruelty. Truly excellent post. This is why I read SDMB threads. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2229 "2014-08-26T12:25:45Z")
All you gun-haters are overlooking that [Cops can kill innocent blacks without using guns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo). To slime-scum like **Steophan** : Were these cops at risk of life? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2230 "2014-08-26T12:29:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > All you gun-haters are overlooking that [Cops can kill innocent blacks without using guns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo). If he didn’t want to die, he shouldn’t have been breaking the law and he shouldn’t have picked a fight with the cops who came to deal with his law-breaking. It’s that simple, and it works just fine for the 98% of Americans who aren’t incarcerated. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2231 "2014-08-26T12:31:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If he didn’t want to die, he shouldn’t have been breaking the law and he shouldn’t have picked a fight with the cops who came to deal with his law-breaking. Do you actually read what you write? You’re either a serious fascist law-and-order bootlicker or you’re trolling as one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2232 "2014-08-26T12:45:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Do you actually read what you write? You’re either a serious fascist law-and-order bootlicker or you’re trolling as one. I am not a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2233 "2014-08-26T12:48:28Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Retreat isn’t an option? Surrender is always an option, if you don’t mind your family being injured or killed. Read the scenario again, and ask yourself if you hope the police retreat and call for help in that situation. If you do, then I guess the answer to the pop quiz is Yes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2234 "2014-08-26T12:49:29Z")
Cracked: The Bizarre Story of How American Cops Became Stormtroopers [http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-bizarre-story-how-american-cops-became-stormtroopers/](http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-bizarre-story-how-american-cops-became-stormtroopers/) > [@](#): > > t really seems to us that cops don’t understand or care about what it’s like to not be a cop. First there’s this Washington Post op-ed, where an officer actually says, “If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me,” in response – this can’t be stressed enough – to the death of a child. … The underlying assumption of both those articles is that the community should change to adapt to how cops behave, and not vice versa. That is fucking insane, and proves that they see themselves as an entity separate from the people they’re supposed to be working with and for. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2235 "2014-08-26T12:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me And the flaw in this statement is _what_, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2236 "2014-08-26T12:54:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And the flaw in this statement is _what_, exactly? It implies that cops never make mistakes, never do bad things, should never be challenged, and if they are, that the challenger deserves whatever he gets, including death. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2237 "2014-08-26T12:57:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It implies that cops never make mistakes, never do bad things, should never be challenged, and if they are, that the challenger deserves whatever he gets, including death. Don’t they? When, from a practical standpoint, is it _ever_ a good idea to challenge someone who has the lawful authority to summarily kill you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2238 "2014-08-26T13:00:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Don’t they? No, cops do sometimes make mistakes, and they sometimes do bad things. > [@](#): > > When, from a practical standpoint, is it _ever_ a good idea to challenge someone who has the lawful authority to summarily kill you? Cops don’t/shouldn’t have the “lawful authority to summarily kill you”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2239 "2014-08-26T13:03:49Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Empowering the police to kill suspected criminals based on a small chance of danger violates the principles that keep our country free. “The safety of a criminal caught in the act must be prioritized over the safety of the police” is not a principle that keeps our country free. > [@](#): > > A human being is more than the worst thing he has ever done, which is why we require that punishment be proportional to the crime and free from cruelty. We aren’t talking about punishment. We are talking about maintaining public order. They are not the same, and are not governed by the same principle. > [@](#): > > Worse yet, you do so based on bad premises, reasoning that criminals and a different and lesser kind of person and that cops are very good at spotting them. Most people recognize that someone breaking into your house is up to no good a large majority of the time and that, if he isn’t, he doesn’t run away from the police when they confront him. > [@](#): > > But the truth is that most Americans are criminals. You have probably committed felonies, but simply haven’t been caught. The reasons you haven’t been caught are many… Actually the reasons are simple - I have never attacked anyone with a knife, or broken into a house. > [@](#): > > …the single best predictor of which is race, in many places. It is very likely that you, or at least people you consider to be good people, have experienced a certain kind of privilege in not having been caught for felony crimes, such that you were able to go on living an otherwise upstanding life instead of the death spiral of collateral consequences that is modern criminal justice. At which point you simply take leave of your senses. The notion that the primary reason I have not been arrested for a felony is my race, rather than the fact **that I haven’t committed any fucking felonies** , is the kind of paranoid thinking that makes it impossible to take this kind of foolishness seriously. > [@](#): > > Criminals aren’t just like you and me. They are you and me. Maybe they’re you; I wouldn’t know. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2240 "2014-08-26T13:04:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cops don’t/shouldn’t have the “lawful authority to summarily kill you”. And if its and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas. When is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=111) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=113)