# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 113
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2241 "2014-08-26T13:05:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Empowering the police to kill suspected criminals based on a small chance of danger violates the principles that keep our country free. A human being is more than the worst thing he has ever done, which is why we require that punishment be proportional to the crime and free from cruelty. Punishing an innocent man is worse than setting many guilty men free, which is why we insist that the highest standards of evidence are used in determining whether someone has committed a crime. When you abandon these principles in favor of shooting suspect criminals on the flimsiest of rationales, you abandon some of the fundamental tenets of Western Civilization. This ignores a core point. The issue with having cops shoot suspects is not about punishing the suspects for the evil of resisting the cops. It’s about enabling cops to protect the public. If cops are rendered fearful of suspects due to overly restrictive laws on allowing them to protect themselves, their ability to enforce the law and protect the public will be severely harmed. The type of analysis you put forth sounds very nice and high-minded but ignores a fundamental aspect of the issue. > [@](#): > > Worse yet, you do so based on bad premises, reasoning that criminals and a different and lesser kind of person and that cops are very good at spotting them. > > But the truth is that most Americans are criminals. You have probably committed felonies, but simply haven’t been caught. The reasons you haven’t been caught are many, but include the kind of neighborhood you live in–the single best predictor of which is race, in many places. It is very likely that you, or at least people you consider to be good people, have experienced a certain kind of privilege in not having been caught for felony crimes, such that you were able to go on living an otherwise upstanding life instead of the death spiral of collateral consequences that is modern criminal justice. This notion that someone who commits a crime is a different and lesser kind of human being is wrong. Criminals aren’t just like you and me. They are you and me. This is extremely simplistic. There are not two categories of people, being those who have never violated the law in their lives and everyone else. “Criminals” span a very very broad spectrum, in terms of both their net cost/benefit to society and the immediate threat that they pose. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2242 "2014-08-26T13:08:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? Again, cops don’t (and shouldn’t) have that authority. Having a gun and a badge doesn’t mean you get to kill anyone you want, or even anyone who challenges you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2243 "2014-08-26T13:09:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This ignores a core point. The issue with having cops shoot suspects is not about punishing the suspects for the evil of resisting the cops. It’s about enabling cops to protect the public. If cops are rendered fearful of suspects due to overly restrictive laws on allowing them to protect themselves, their ability to enforce the law and protect the public will be severely harmed. > > The type of analysis you put forth sounds very nice and high-minded but ignores a fundamental aspect of the issue. > > This is extremely simplistic. There are not two categories of people, being those who have never violated the law in their lives and everyone else. “Criminals” span a very very broad spectrum, in terms of both their net cost/benefit to society and the immediate threat that they pose. Other countries’ police forces are able to protect the public while shooting far, far fewer people than in the US, including far, far fewer unarmed and knife-armed people. I think it’s reasonable to surmise that these countries might be doing things better in some ways. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2244 "2014-08-26T13:13:55Z")
I don’t see what that has to do with what we’re discussing here. We’re discussing the acceptable ratio of police killed by criminals to criminals killed by police (which RP feels should ideally be 1:1). You got some ratios from other countries? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2245 "2014-08-26T13:15:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Again, cops don’t (and shouldn’t) have that authority. Having a gun and a badge doesn’t mean you get to kill anyone you want, or even anyone who challenges you. Which is still avoiding the question. When is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2246 "2014-08-26T13:33:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t see what that has to do with what we’re discussing here. > > We’re discussing the acceptable ratio of police killed by criminals to criminals killed by police (which RP feels should ideally be 1:1). The discussion seemed broader than that to me, but if it wasn’t, then I apologize for my misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2247 "2014-08-26T13:34:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which is still avoiding the question. > > When is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? It’s not avoiding the question, because they don’t have that authority. That question is totally irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2248 "2014-08-26T13:37:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? [QUOTE=Benjamin Franklin] “It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.” [/QUOTE] … ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2249 "2014-08-26T13:39:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not avoiding the question, because they don’t have that authority. That question is totally irrelevant. So, when is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2250 "2014-08-26T13:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=Benjamin Franklin] “It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.” [/QUOTE] And did Mr. Franklin hold [the slaves that he owned and advertised the sale of](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Slaves_and_slavery) to that same standard? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2251 "2014-08-26T13:42:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “The safety of a criminal caught in the act must be prioritized over the safety of the police” is not a principle that keeps our country free. No one is calling for that. Saying that the policies that set the boundaries for the use of deadly force should be designed so that, more often than not, the force was in fact used against a real threat is a very far cry from your tortured interpretation. > [@Shodan](#): > > We aren’t talking about punishment. We are talking about maintaining public order. They are not the same, and are not governed by the same principle. You are, actually. You’re saying that because someone has committed a crime (or rather is suspected of doing so!) they are more deserving of being killed than a police officer is. Because you’re using the fact of the suspected non-violent(!) crime to justify the conduct, you are very much talking about punishment as distinct from self-defense. > [@Shodan](#): > > The notion that the primary reason I have not been arrested for a felony is my race, rather than the fact **that I haven’t committed any fucking felonies** , is the kind of paranoid thinking that makes it impossible to take this kind of foolishness seriously. So you’re telling us you’ve never possessed a controlled substance? Let someone else take one of your prescription pills? Driven after drinking when you’re over the limit but feel fine? Downloaded something illegally? Violated a gun possession or registration law? Struck someone in a bar fight? Bashed mailboxes? Bought alcohol for someone underage? Failed to report tips on your taxes? Violated the terms of use on a website? Left your child with a babysitter younger than your state’s minimum? Had sex in a public place (in some states)? If so, you’re in the distinct minority. But I’m guessing you just didn’t consider your felonies to be real felonies. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This ignores a core point. The issue with having cops shoot suspects is not about punishing the suspects for the evil of resisting the cops. It’s about enabling cops to protect the public. If cops are rendered fearful of suspects due to overly restrictive laws on allowing them to protect themselves, their ability to enforce the law and protect the public will be severely harmed. Which is why policies on the use of force should be focused on the assessment of threats. If your policy says you should potentially kill someone if there’s a 10% chance that they pose a threat, so long as they are suspected of a crime (the equivalent of the 10:1 ratio), then your policy is very much treating criminal suspects differently from everyone else just because they are suspected of a crime. That’s what **Shodan** is saying. He values the lives of suspected burglars less, and therefore is ok with killing them even when they don’t pose the kind of threat that would justify self-defense among two strangers in a bar. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2252 "2014-08-26T13:44:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And did Mr. Franklin hold [the slaves that he owned and advertised the sale of](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Slaves_and_slavery) to that same standard? Franklin later changed his views on slavery and freed his slaves. Not that it’s relevant, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2253 "2014-08-26T13:45:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So you’re telling us you’ve never possessed a controlled substance? Let someone else take one of your prescription pills? Driven after drinking when you’re over the limit but feel fine? Downloaded something illegally? Violated a gun possession or registration law? Struck someone in a bar fight? Bashed mailboxes? Bought alcohol for someone underage? Failed to report tips on your taxes? Violated the terms of use on a website? Left your child with a babysitter younger than your state’s minimum? Had sex in a public place (in some states)? In my case; I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, and I have not. It does help to know that I’m arguing with people to whom behaving criminally comes so naturally that they deem it impossible that anyone could live otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2254 "2014-08-26T13:46:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Franklin later changed his views on slavery and freed his slaves. Not that it’s relevant, anyway. Charming. Does that make his vague assertions about liberty and resisting authority any less hypocritical? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2255 "2014-08-26T13:49:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Charming. Does that make his vague assertions about liberty and resisting authority any less hypocritical? Yes, it does, considering when he said it. Further, a statement can be judged on its own even if the speaker was a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2256 "2014-08-26T13:49:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So you’re telling us you’ve never possessed a controlled substance? Let someone else take one of your prescription pills? Driven after drinking when you’re over the limit but feel fine? Downloaded something illegally? Violated a gun possession or registration law? Struck someone in a bar fight? Bashed mailboxes? Bought alcohol for someone underage? Failed to report tips on your taxes? Violated the terms of use on a website? Left your child with a babysitter younger than your state’s minimum? Had sex in a public place (in some states)? > > If so, you’re in the distinct minority. But I’m guessing you just didn’t consider your felonies to be real felonies. This again? I’ll answer these. I have never possessed a controlled substance. Never let anyone else take one of my prescription pills, and never taken anyone else’s. Never driven over the blood alcohol limit. I don’t agree that any “illegal” download I’ve done was a criminal offense. I’ve never violated a gun possession or registration law. I’ve only bashed one mailbox, and I owned it. I’ve never bought alcohol for anyone underage. I’ve never failed to report tips as taxable income, and I was a waiter. Never left my child with a babysitter under the age of 18. And any sex I’ve had in public was not criminal. Nor do I agree this puts me in the minority. > [@Smapti](#): > > It does help to know that I’m arguing with people to whom behaving criminally comes so naturally that they deem it impossible that anyone could live otherwise. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2257 "2014-08-26T13:50:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So, when is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? No one has that authority. I don’t understand the question. Do you mean God? Because I don’t believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2258 "2014-08-26T13:54:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one has that authority. I don’t understand the question. Do you mean God? Because I don’t believe in God. So, when is it ever a good idea to challenge someone with that authority? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2259 "2014-08-26T13:55:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In my case; I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, I have not, and I have not. > > It does help to know that I’m arguing with people to whom behaving criminally comes so naturally that they deem it impossible that anyone could live otherwise. Of course I don’t deem it impossible. My claim is that you’re in the distinct minority. And you are. If you believe that most Americans are lesser human beings, then more power to you. Most people are just a teency-bit less cynical and misanthropic than that. > [@Bricker](#): > > Nor do I agree this puts me in the minority. Well, you’re wrong. The majority of Americans have possessed a controlled substance. Even if you assume that only people in that category have ever done the other common crimes–a doubtful assumption–then you’re still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2260 "2014-08-26T13:56:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > All you gun-haters are overlooking that [Cops can kill innocent blacks without using guns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo). > > To slime-scum like **Steophan** : Were these cops at risk of life? What does whether they were at “risk of life” (whatever that means\*) have to do with making an arrest. As soon as he shoved the cops away, and then resisted arrest, it became necessary to use force. Certainly what happened there is tragic, but it’s hardly the police’s fault the guy was asthmatic, nor that he resisted them. \*Assuming you mean “risk of death” that’s not the standard where people (let alone cops) can use lethal force in self defence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=112) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=114)