# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 123
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2441 "2014-09-11T17:14:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Holy shit. "Attached please find our invoice for royalties due for your procedures manual. -the Estate of F. Kafka." ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2442 "2014-09-11T17:15:05Z")
These are the immediate reactions of eyewitnesses at the scene. They are not testimony from witnesses at a later date, who might be subject to various pressures and influences. They are visceral, immediate, and uncensored. Let us grant two factors: one, that eyewitness testimony is notoriously suspect. Eyewitnesses are sometime certain, beyond any doubt, that person X is the guy, the will pick his picture out of a spread, they will positively identify him in a lineup…and be totally wrong. That happens. Also let us accept that the citizens of Ferguson do not enjoy a trusting and secure relationship with their police. And that such animosity might well color their perceptions. Even given those caveats, how likely is it that they could confuse hands raised in the air in a “surrender” posture with any other configuration? Or, even more implausibly, that they might make it up out of whole cloth, right there on the spot? That’s not to say that this testimony is definitive and removes all doubt. But in conjunction with the audio recordings that strongly suggest an officer “blazing away”, it adds up to a strong and plausible scenario that would require evidence at least that persuasive to rebut it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2443 "2014-09-11T17:58:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Holy shit. Yeah, i read that a couple of weeks ago. It is truly one of the most horrific things i’ve ever read about American law enforcement and criminal justice, and that’s saying something. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2444 "2014-09-11T18:09:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So who’s lying - the witness who said his hands were up, the witness who said he was running, or the witness who said he had his hands extended forward? Is it possible… now, hang on, this is gonna blow your mind… that those things ALL happened? Like, not all at the same time, but in rapid sequence? And that different witnesses saw different parts of what occurred? Nah, I know. Cop shot guy, cop is right, dead guy is wrong. **Smapti** stamp of approval. NEXT! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2445 "2014-09-11T18:15:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Even given those caveats, how likely is it that they could confuse hands raised in the air in a “surrender” posture with any other configuration? Or, even more implausibly, that they might make it up out of whole cloth, right there on the spot? > > That’s not to say that this testimony is definitive and removes all doubt. But in conjunction with the audio recordings that strongly suggest an officer “blazing away”, it adds up to a strong and plausible scenario that would require evidence at least that persuasive to rebut it. (post shortened) There is the forensic evidence that Brown was shot between 5 to 8 times while facing the officer. That casts doubt on eyewitness testimony that Brown was running away when he was killed. Sunny Hostin still says Brown was running away when he was shot??? According to this CNN story, CNN is assuming that this video was taken three minutes after Brown was shot. That should have been easy for CNN to verify because there were now other police vehicles at the scene. When did the 2nd, 3rd, 4th police officers arrive at the scene? If they hadn’t arrive for 5+ minutes, why didn’t CNN do a better job of verifying this video BEFORE they ran this story. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2446 "2014-09-11T18:21:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …Also let us accept that the citizens of Ferguson do not enjoy a trusting and secure relationship with their police. And that such animosity might well color their perceptions… The contractors in the recent video are not from Ferguson. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2447 "2014-09-11T19:37:13Z")
True dat. Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2448 "2014-09-11T21:44:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yeah, i read that a couple of weeks ago. It is truly one of the most horrific things i’ve ever read about American law enforcement and criminal justice, and that’s saying something. I’d missed it when it came out, so I’m glad the link was posted. And, yeah … holy fucking shit. Note to self: NEVER go to Ferguson, MO. Now that I think about it, that town’s name is well and truly tainted. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2449 "2014-09-17T14:26:05Z")
[Why was Michael Brown’s body left there for hours?](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/why-was-michael-brown-s-body-left-there-for-hours/article_0b73ec58-c6a1-516e-882f-74d18a4246e0.html) ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2450 "2014-09-17T14:41:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So who’s lying - the witness who said his hands were up, the witness who said he was running, or the witness who said he had his hands extended forward? One could imagine a scenario wherein Brown started running, heard the shots and turned around to surrender and then got shot. The cop was certainly not very close for all of the shooting since many of his shots missed Brown entirely. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2451 "2014-09-17T22:21:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Why was Michael Brown’s body left there for hours?](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/why-was-michael-brown-s-body-left-there-for-hours/article_0b73ec58-c6a1-516e-882f-74d18a4246e0.html) \*Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson shot Brown in the moments after 12:02 p.m. Aug. 9. …When the paramedic determined Brown was dead, the care of his body legally transferred to the St. Louis County Medical Examiner. By law, police cannot touch the body. But since most medical examiners won’t set foot in the crime scene until it is processed by police, the fate of Brown’s body was back in police hands. …But at 12:10 p.m., county police began to flood the scene with cars: By 1 p.m., they had dispatched more than a dozen units, according to the county log. By 2 p.m., a dozen more, including two with police dogs. And the scene was about to get much more turbulent. At 2:11 p.m., Ferguson police logs captured reports of shots fired. At 2:14 p.m., ambulance dispatch noted additional gunshots, then a Code 1000, calling all available jurisdictions to help. Over the next 20 minutes, the first precinct dispatched more than 20 units from at least eight different municipal forces, from Bel-Ridge to St. John to Velda City. At some point, Chief Jackson said he urged crime scene detectives to hurry up their work. “We’ve got to expedite,” Jackson said he told them. “They said, ‘OK, we’re expediting.’ But then we had a shooting over here, crowd’s coming in, and it’s really not secure there.” About 2:30 p.m., Calvin Whitaker, the livery service driver, arrived to pick up Brown’s body. One end of Canfield was blocked off by police and emergency vehicles. At the other end, a crowd stood in his way. “They were screaming, ‘Let’s kill the police,’” he said. People flung water bottles at his black SUV, he said, cussed at his wife and called them murderers. A police officer told them to stay in the car. “You guys do not have vests,” he told them. “The best thing for you to do is get down.” Whitaker and his wife reclined their seats and hunkered down. …Finally, about 4 p.m., police officers gave the medical examiner investigator, then Whitaker and his wife, the go-ahead to take Brown’s body to the morgue.\* > **[Why was Michael Brown's body left there for hours?](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-courts/why-was-michael-brown-s-body-left-there-for-hours/article_0b73ec58-c6a1-516e-882f-74d18a4246e0.html)** > > As crowds gathered, investigators found a scene so volatile, so dangerous, it caught them by surprise. Brown was shot, a mob formed, some people in the mob were saying, “Kill the police”, police backup was requested to secure the scene, the St. Louis County Medical Examiner will not work an unsecured crime scene and they certainly won’t work a crime scene where there are active shooters, finally, at about 4 p.m. police officers gave the medical examiner investigator the go-ahead to take Brown’s body to the morgue. It appears that it took 4hrs to remove Brown’s body because the mob created a situation that prevented the Medical Examiner from doing his job. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2452 "2014-09-18T00:34:12Z")
Missouri cops again. [Son Of Police Officer In Coma After 50,000-Volt Tasing For Traffic Stop](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/16/son-of-police-officer-in-coma-after-50000-volt-tasing-for-traffic-stop/) Cops and witnesses disagree. Surprise, surprise. Sounds like it wasn’t really the tasing that caused the coma, but getting his head slammed to the pavement by the cop after the electric jolt. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2453 "2014-10-09T16:45:57Z")
From [today’s Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ferguson-police-continued-crackdown-on-protesters-after-federal-state-interventions/2014/10/09/15df8a2a-4e40-11e4-aa5e-7153e466a02d_story.html): > [@](#): > > Despite federal and state attempts to intervene during the two months since 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot and killed, the Ferguson Police Department continued — and even accelerated — efforts to suppress peaceful protests using arbitrary and inconsistently applied arrest policies, according to Justice Department officials who are investigating the department and county police officials who have since taken over for the city. > … > Hundreds of protesters have been arrested since August for violating unwritten rules and committing minor offenses, such as failure to disperse or unlawful assembly, and for violating a noise ordinance. Many have been taken to jail without being told what charges they may face and are often released without any paperwork. For weeks, officers employed a “five-second rule” under which any protester who stopped walking was subject to arrest — a policy ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge this week. > … [some police taunt protestors]… > … protesters have complained that bail amounts are rising, jail time has increased and that their organizers were being singled out and routinely plucked from crowds of 100 to 300 people and arrested. > [et cetera] ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2454 "2014-10-09T22:54:37Z")
That’s not the worst thing. The worst thing is it looks like they’re going to whitewash Darren Wilson’s grand jury. The prosecutor hasn’t recommended any charges to the grand jury, he’s just haphazardly presenting evidence including the highly unusual step of letting Wilson, the TARGET, testify for reportedly four hours. It looks like the state attorney is setting up a non-indictment decision so he can then say, “hey, I did all I could”. God knows what’ll happen in Ferguson if it turns out like that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2455 "2014-10-10T18:28:57Z")
Could you please give us the details of the prosecutor’s presentation, and exactly how you know that it is an attempt at a whitewash? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2456 "2014-10-10T18:40:28Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > That’s not the worst thing. The worst thing is it looks like they’re going to whitewash Darren Wilson’s grand jury. The prosecutor hasn’t recommended any charges to the grand jury, he’s just haphazardly presenting evidence including the highly unusual step of letting Wilson, the TARGET, testify for reportedly four hours. It looks like the state attorney is setting up a non-indictment decision so he can then say, “hey, I did all I could”. > > God knows what’ll happen in Ferguson if it turns out like that. If you’re getting insider information about what is happening during this Grand Jury, it looks like this Grand Jury will have to be dismissed and another Grand Jury convened. IF. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2457 "2014-10-10T18:44:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could you please give us the details of the prosecutor’s presentation, and exactly how you know that it is an attempt at a whitewash? > > Regards, > Shodan One, the unusual step in presenting to a grand jury instead of the way St. Louis USUALLY charges defendants via a criminal complaint. Two, the unusual step in allowing the target of the investigation to testify in front of the GJ. Three, the prosecutor is reportedly not offering charging recommendations to the GJ but is only haphazardly presenting evidence. It looks like a “cya” move. The prosecutor wants to be able to say he did all he could while NOT charging Wilson. Oh, and the fact that cops are having strategy meetings on how to handle riots if Wilson is not indicated ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2458 "2014-10-10T19:02:42Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > One, the unusual step in presenting to a grand jury instead of the way St. Louis USUALLY charges defendants via a criminal complaint. Two, the unusual step in allowing the target of the investigation to testify in front of the GJ. Three, the prosecutor is reportedly not offering charging recommendations to the GJ but is only haphazardly presenting evidence. (post shortened) There is nothing unusual about a prosecutor submitting a case to a Grand Jury. It’s an accepted part of the legal system. The prosecutor can present any evidence to the Grand Jury that may help in the finding of fact. You know, what the Grand Jury was actually created to do. “Reportedly” not offering charging recommendations? Reported by whom? If someone is leaking information, they’re going to have to start from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2459 "2014-10-10T19:47:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > There is nothing unusual about a prosecutor submitting a case to a Grand Jury. It’s an accepted part of the legal system. It is HIGHLY unusual in the Ferguson jurisdiction. > [@door hinge](#): > > The prosecutor can present any evidence to the Grand Jury that may help in the finding of fact. You know, what the Grand Jury was actually created to do. > > “Reportedly” not offering charging recommendations? Reported by whom? If someone is leaking information, they’re going to have to start from the beginning. Here’s the cite . . . [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-atypical-approach-grand-jury-in-ferguson-shooting-receives-full-measure-of-case/2014/09/07/1dec6ffe-339b-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2460 "2014-10-10T20:18:15Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > It is HIGHLY unusual in the Ferguson jurisdiction. > > Here’s the cite . . . [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-atypical-approach-grand-jury-in-ferguson-shooting-receives-full-measure-of-case/2014/09/07/1dec6ffe-339b-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html) Those utter bastards, making sure the decision is made in a transparent manner by people who’ve seen all the evidence. RACISM! EVIL! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=122) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=124)