# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/241 "2014-08-14T15:17:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But what’s the difference if it has a legitimate basis or not? > > Kids who shoot up their schools frequently have a “legitimate basis” for that too. So do Al Qaeda terrorists. > > “Legitimate basis” is a very very thin reed. A thin reed for what? I’m not trying to justify violence or looting, just as I’m sure you’re not trying to justify terrorism or school shooting. I’m saying that in terms of the analysis of the protests and riots, their causes, consequences, and meaning, it doesn’t really matter what actually went down in the initial shooting. The “narrative” is much more than just this one shooting in St. Louis. It is decades of racism, and specifically decades of police misconduct. That was my point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/242 "2014-08-14T15:19:21Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Has Al Sharpton & his ilk offered any justification for _why_ the police should release the officer’s name? Or are we to just assume it’s so that they can go kill him, and maybe his family too? [Richard Benjamin writes:](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/14/release_the_officers_name_its_time_to_stop_shielding_michael_browns_killer/) > [@](#): > > In this process, here’s a start: Authorities should release the name of the Ferguson police officer who, at present, is shielded in police secrecy. This situation is not a 12-step program, Debtors or Alcoholics Anonymous. Why is the Ferguson police officer being granted the benefit of anonymity even as a youth is dead? Not only does Michael Brown have no anonymity, his family should brace itself: Police apologists and right-wing news media are chomping at the bit to excavate the deceased boy’s past – school records, potential recreational drug use, friendships, etc — publicly to smear his name as a means to justify his death. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/243 "2014-08-14T15:21:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > People in Ferguson seen to be having trouble with this whole “when a cop tella you to disperse, disperse” concept. You seem to be having the trouble with the whole “protest demonstration” concept. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/244 "2014-08-14T15:24:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Seriously. You didn’t see the photos of snipers atop armored vehicles pointing their weapons into a crowd? You didn’t hear about the guy who got slammed into the glass of a McDonalds? You din’t see the tear gas being used in residential neighborhoods? So your argument is that the police are wrong because law enforcement is in photogenic? > [@](#): > > What were people supposed to do, disperse out of their own homes? If they stayed hone they wouldn’t be getting fired on. [/quote] > [@](#): > > And you don’t even recognize that the flashpoint for all of this was the shooting death of an unarmed teen by police? Unarmed != innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/245 "2014-08-14T15:25:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > He was tweeting so people would know where he was and what happened if they decided to, say, shoot him. That’s a very charitable interpretation. It’s clear from reading his own account that he was acting like a complete ass. > [@](#): > > These cops claimed to have shown up in response to a 911 call. They weren’t responding to a riot. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There was no rioting in the McDonald’s. That’s why the reporters were setting up there every night. Give me a break. This is the McDonalds right next to the rioting. That’s why the reporters set up there. It’s a place they can duck into and charge their phones and stuff. It’s two blocks from where Brown was shot. Of course any cops responding to it might be in riot gear. It’s right in the middle of an area where there have been riots for four days. This is just getting absurd. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/246 "2014-08-14T15:26:18Z")
Ok. I guess reasonable people can argue about whether or not Police should be kicking reporters out of McDonalds and arresting them. Is there any reasonable reason the Al Jazeera camera crew needed to be tear gassed, chased, and shot at and afterwards have the cops dismantle their cameras? > [@](#): > > Approximately five to 10 minutes later, video recorded by the other photojournalist shows police at the intersection of Highmont and West Florissant fire what appears to be tear gas at the Al Jazeera America crew station nearby. The crew of three people is set up with television lights and a camera in front of their mini-van. The video shows the apparent tear gas billowing smoke directly in front of them. The KSDK crew says the canister hit the Al Jazeera America van. > > The KSDK crew says the Al Jazeera America crew was yelling, “We’re the press.” The Al Jazeera America crew can be seen running away from the van on video. Then two police officers can be seen taking down the crew’s television lights and tilting the TV camera toward the ground. [Link to story](http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/14/crews-hit-with-bean-bags-tear-gas/14042747/) ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/247 "2014-08-14T15:30:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Bill O’Reilly reaches a new low.](http://www.salon.com/2014/08/13/bill_o%e2%80%99reillys_ferguson_disgrace_host_spews_sick_lecture_to_michael_browns_family/) That’s more like Salon reaching a new low. The headline says O’Reilly “spews a sick lecture” but that content is missing from the piece. All it has is a bunch of way out of left field racist accusations by the author that in no way resemble anything O’Reilly is quoted as saying. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/248 "2014-08-14T15:32:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You seem to be having the trouble with the whole “protest demonstration” concept. Molotov cocktails are not a valid means of protest. If the people of Ferguson refuse to fall into line soon, we may as well solve this problem the way the Israelis do and bulldoze the place into dust. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/249 "2014-08-14T15:36:31Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > Ok. I guess reasonable people can argue about whether or not Police should be kicking reporters out of McDonalds and arresting them. Is there any reasonable reason the Al Jazeera camera crew needed to be tear gassed, chased, and shot at and afterwards have the cops dismantle their cameras? > [Link to story](http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/14/crews-hit-with-bean-bags-tear-gas/14042747/) You let out what the “5 to 10 minutes later” referred to; > [@](#): > > Shortly after 9 p.m., police in riot gear began dispersing demonstrators about a quarter of a mile from the crew’s location. Once again, people loitering in a riot zone which has been dispersed are shocked to find themselves being subjected to riot dispersal tactics. This isn’t rocket surgery - if you insist on standing around with a camera in the middle of a war zone, don’t act surprised when you get fired on. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/250 "2014-08-14T15:37:22Z")
The police are coming of as heavy handed and my gut tells me that Mike Brown’s shooting will be found to be unjustified. That said, I’m not compelled by any argument as to why they should release the officers name at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/251 "2014-08-14T15:43:54Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So that got pissed that Ryan was photographing the police intrusion and because of that, demanded his ID. He was right to refuse, we ALL have the right to photograph or videorecord police at any time. Then they assaulted him. > > No, no police brutality here. Nothing to see, move on, disperse. You don’t have that right if doing so interferes with a police operation. You don’t have that right if a policeman has instructed you to move, if doing so stops you moving. It’s time people respected the police, instead of trying to stop them doing their job. In this case, their job is to protect people from the criminal scum rioting, looting, and destroying their community - and if you’re not supporting the police, you’re effectively supporting the rioters. There’s a simple solution. Impose a curfew, and lock up anyone breaking it, and throw away the key. Fuck your “peaceful” protests, save them for a time when tempers aren’t so high. Or, better still, actually work for change rather than whinging. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/252 "2014-08-14T15:45:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So that got pissed that Ryan was photographing the police intrusion and because of that, demanded his ID. He was right to refuse, we ALL have the right to photograph or videorecord police at any time. Then they assaulted him. > > No, no police brutality here. Nothing to see, move on, disperse. I watched his video. He (the reporter) was being a dick. Pure and simple. And I didn’t see any “assault”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/253 "2014-08-14T15:47:13Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > No one has an answer for this? > > The posters adamantly claiming that the police have no right to instate a curfew were just voicing an opinion? Or was this based on some actual law? First, **Debaser** , you’re on a fool’s errand. If the police were acting illegally, then the fidelity of this board to the law is admirable. If it turns out their order was legal, then you’re a monster for not seeing that not every law is moral, and an idiot for not understanding that what was REALLY being discussed here was morality, which, of course, is defined by the liberal members of the board. However, since you asked: So far as a brief, non-exhaustive bit of research has shown, I can’t find any authority for the police to impose a curfew. However, under Missouri law, a person commits the crime of “refusal to disperse” if, being present at the scene of an unlawful assembly, or at the scene of a riot, he knowingly fails or refuses to obey the lawful command of a law enforcement officer to depart from the scene of such unlawful assembly or riot. Under Missouri law, an arrest need be justified only by probable cause. This is a standard much lower than what a conviction would require. It doesn’t require certainty or even a preponderance of the evidence. It does not demand any showing that the belief that a crime is afoot be correct or even more likely true than false. So in my view, there was sufficient probable cause. The reporters were ordered to leave, and apparently did not quickly comply. The reporter for the post says he was trying to comply but his bag fell off his shoulder and he didn’t understand which door he was supposed to use. The officer could have believed that the reporter was employing dilatory tactics to avoid complying with the order. There is nowhere near enough evidence to ever secure a conviction, but the standard for arrest is much lower. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/254 "2014-08-14T15:48:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Molotov cocktails are not a valid means of protest. > > If the people of Ferguson refuse to fall into line soon, we may as well solve this problem the way the Israelis do and bulldoze the place into dust. The thing is, the police _are_ some of the people of Ferguson, and I’ve no doubt that most people there would rather see them arresting the rioters, even id it upsets a few bleeding heart cunts, than let their town be trashed. Always - absolutely always - these riots and “protests” are a minority of troublemakers. Whilst I get where you’re coming from, when you say that the whole town should suffer, you are effectively doing the work of the troublemakers by assuming everyone is at their level - which of course is where they want to drag us down to. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/255 "2014-08-14T15:50:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Once again, people loitering in a riot zone which has been dispersed are shocked to find themselves being subjected to riot dispersal tactics. > > This isn’t rocket surgery - if you insist on standing around with a camera in the middle of a war zone, don’t act surprised when you get fired on. Yeah. That’s not reasonable. Sorry. Reporting != Loitering. If it was just the reporters’ presence that bothered the police they wouldn’t have gone to the trouble of pointing the cameras towards the ground. If you are a police force that fires on the press don’t act surprised when people are upset. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/256 "2014-08-14T15:51:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That’s more like Salon reaching a new low. The headline says O’Reilly “spews a sick lecture” but that content is missing from the piece. No, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > On Tuesday night’s “O’Reilly Factor,” the angry host addressed “Unrest in St. Louis.” But he didn’t merely rail against looters and rioters, as might have been expected. Instead, he took on Michael Brown’s parents for claiming their son had been wrongly killed. He showed a snippet of Don Lemon’s interview with Michael Brown Sr. and Leslie McSpadden, in which McSpadden collapses in tears and Brown says solemnly that if there is no justice for his son, there will be no peace. > > In conversation with Carson, O’Reilly uncharacteristically expressed “100 percent confidence” that Attorney General Eric Holder – normally a Fox piñata — would make sure justice is done in the Brown case, and Carson agreed. O’Reilly even praised the local NAACP for condemning the looting, but blamed Rev. Al Sharpton for coming in and “agitating”; of course, Sharpton had immediately denounced the violence and asked for peaceful protest, as did Brown’s family and friends. > > But it didn’t matter that Michael Brown Sr. had asked that looting and rioting stop. O’Reilly just couldn’t get over that clip of him referencing an old civil rights slogan, “No justice, no peace.” He went off: > > > [@](#): > > > > Do we as a society — what do we do? Do we weigh in as the boy’s father — and if it were my son, I probably would have said same thing, but he’s obviously talking through an emotional prism. His son is dead. He believes, probably — I know he believes — that it was an injustice, that it was done for nothing, it was a murder. And many, many African-Americans believe that without knowing the facts. Do we criticize them, or do we remain silent? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/257 "2014-08-14T15:51:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the people of Ferguson refuse to fall into line soon, we may as well solve this problem the way the Israelis do and bulldoze the place into dust. Running for election? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/258 "2014-08-14T15:54:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Under Missouri law, an arrest need be justified only by probable cause. This is a standard much lower than what a conviction would require. It doesn’t require certainty or even a preponderance of the evidence. It does not demand any showing that the belief that a crime is afoot be correct or even more likely true than false. I note that you haven’t bothered to address the fact that the reporters were in a McDonald’s - nearby, but not actually _at_ the scene of the riots. Frankly, I’m a little surprised (regardless of the facts) that you take the position that the arrest of a member of the press corps is presumptively okay. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/259 "2014-08-14T15:58:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The reporters were ordered to leave, and apparently did not quickly comply. The reporter for the post says he was trying to comply but his bag fell off his shoulder and he didn’t understand which door he was supposed to use. The officer could have believed that the reporter was employing dilatory tactics to avoid complying with the order. There is nowhere near enough evidence to ever secure a conviction, but the standard for arrest is much lower. I don’t agree that a momentary explained delay and confusion over conflicting orders gives rise to PC for arrest on the facts as reported. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/260 "2014-08-14T15:58:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I note that you haven’t bothered to address the fact that the reporters were in a McDonald’s - nearby, but not actually _at_ the scene of the riots. Frankly, I’m a little surprised (regardless of the facts) that you take the position that the arrest of a member of the press corps is presumptively okay. Being a member of the press corps does not privilege one from arrest. They’re subject to the same laws as the rest of society, and failure to disperse is failure to disperse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=14)