# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 131
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2601 "2014-10-27T07:23:25Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Let me interpret this charitably as indicating you have not read the article. Or perhaps you read a different article. Where did you get the idea that protesters refused instructions by Walmart staff? > > [I went to Ferguson to protect the protesters. I got arrested instead. | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2014/10/24/7033567/ferguson-protest-arrested-michael-brown) They closed the store and called the police, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2602 "2014-10-27T14:31:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “legal observer” is not s thing You keep saying that. Are you incapable of some basic research, or unwilling? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2603 "2014-10-27T15:27:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of a crime, you fucking idiot. Presumption of innocence. OH, MY! You sounded just like Dirty Harry. Be still my heart. 😃 The only person being investigated is officer Wilson. Wilson is entitled to a presumption of innocence. The case against Brown for strong-armed robbery has been closed. Brown robbed the store. Eyewitness Johnson, the store’s security video, and finding the stolen cigars at the scene of Brown’s shooting strongly suggest that Brown is guilty of robbing the store. According to the forensic evidence listed in the two coroner’s reports that have been made public, Brown was shot seven times. Brown’s first wounds occurred to his hand and arm while Brown’s right arm was in the police vehicle. Brown was shot five more times in his chest and head, while he was facing the officer. The other bullet wound that passed thru Brown’s right arm could have come from either the front or the back. The grand jury is trying to decide if Wilson should be charged with a crime. Wilson is entitled to a presumption of innocence. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2604 "2014-10-27T15:52:39Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You keep saying that. Are you incapable of some basic research, or unwilling? Maybe you explain what a legal observer is and what authority they have? The National Lawyers Guild sounds a lot like olde tyme ambulance chasers who actively look for someone to represent. _Did you fall down in the store? Were you hurt? Here’s my card. Call me if you’d like to make some money from your injuries_. Does belonging to the NLG exempt members from arrest or detention? Does it make them any smarter than they were before joining the NLG? Are NLG types immune from following lawful police instructions? Justin Hansford was arrested inside the business. It appears that Hansford took part in a planned demonstration to disrupt the lawful activity of a business and it’s customers. Justin Hansford only had to follow two orders from the business employees and the police - Get out and Stay out. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2605 "2014-10-27T16:03:13Z")
There’s a difference, of course, between flatly and simplisticly stating “Legal Observers are granted no special immunity from arrest or prosecution” and ignorantly stating that “Legal Observers are not a thing.” They clearly are a “thing.” They get training from a national professional group and have a history dating back 85 years. While it’s also true that legal observers don’t get a badge or anything, this wasn’t some case of a night janitor donning a hat that said “Legal Observer” and then went out rioting expecting special treatment. This was a lawyer acting within the traditional capacity of legal observers. If he was committing a crime the cops were right to arrest him, but given the circumstances that makes them jackasses. And as far as I’m concerned, possibly corrupt jackasses. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2606 "2014-10-27T16:36:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In other words, they did not leave and took an action indicating that they had no intention of leaving. > > Notwithstanding the fact that “legal observer” is not s thing, I’d say he had ample warning. This “legal observer” seems to be alleging that he was arrested solely and simply because he was black - I do not find this assertion to be credible based only what what he says. As mentioned, they were disrupting private business on private property. I am not sure why the protesters have a hard-on for Wal-Mart, unless they are trying to make themselves look even more stupid and racist than they already do by protesting the[John Crawford shooting](http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/officers-describe-moments-before-john-crawford-sho/nhhft/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2607 "2014-10-27T16:43:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If he was committing a crime the cops were right to arrest him, but given the circumstances that makes them jackasses. There’s your problem in a nutshell. People getting upset at getting arrested for crimes, not the them(cops) being jackasses part. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2608 "2014-10-27T17:07:16Z")
“Wilson is entitled to a presumption of innocence.” Just to clarify things for those of you who want to feel comfy in a personal decision that someone is guilty of having committed a criminal act, one is entitled to a LEGAL presumption of innocence _in a court of law_\*. Out in the world, you are free to make your own finding in advance of a trial, if you please. So … whomever’s inclined to believe he committed criminal negligence at the least because he chose to do X instead of, say, call for backup or, say, just stop shooting unless and until (applying principles of rationality) he felt his life was _actually in danger_, carry on. - And of course where that doesn’t occur, that’s a problem, but it does in fact occur … a lot. The fact that a judge or the jury doesn’t bother to declare guilt until they are authorized to so declare doesn’t change reality. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2609 "2014-10-27T23:45:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not sure why the protesters have a hard-on for Wal-Mart, unless they are trying to make themselves look even more stupid and racist than they already do by protesting the[John Crawford shooting](http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/officers-describe-moments-before-john-crawford-sho/nhhft/). > > Regards, > Shodan [del]OCP[/del] Walmart owns the cops! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2610 "2014-10-28T01:37:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not sure why the protesters have a hard-on for Wal-Mart, unless they are trying to make themselves look even more stupid and racist than they already do by protesting the[John Crawford shooting](http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/officers-describe-moments-before-john-crawford-sho/nhhft/). > > Regards, > Shodan How does protest the shooting of John Crawford make one look “racist”? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2611 "2014-10-28T05:29:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This “legal observer” seems to be alleging that he was arrested solely and simply because he was black - I do not find this assertion to be credible based only what what he says. As mentioned, they were disrupting private business on private property. The hell? He was watching protesters quietly, at a distance, along with 4 other legal observers and a crowd of shoppers, some taking pics with cell phones. An evening’s entertainment. And I repeat that there’s no evidence that Walmart staff gave orders to the protestors to leave. They may have just called the cops. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2612 "2014-10-28T05:37:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How does protest the shooting of John Crawford make one look “racist”? Uhm, that was my next question. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2613 "2014-10-28T05:39:20Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The hell? He was watching protesters quietly, at a distance, along with 4 other legal observers and a crowd of shoppers, some taking pics with cell phones. An evening’s entertainment. > And I repeat that there’s no evidence that Walmart staff gave orders to the protestors to leave. They may have just called the cops. There’s also the fact that the cops in Ferguson have a well documented and RECENT history of arresting innocent bystanders including journalists. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2614 "2014-10-28T12:25:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How does protest the shooting of John Crawford make one look “racist”? You don’t see them out protesting when a WHITE guy gets killed by cops for walking around in a Wal-Mart with a pellet gun he got off the shelf, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2615 "2014-10-28T13:34:33Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The hell? He was watching protesters quietly, at a distance, along with 4 other legal observers and a crowd of shoppers, some taking pics with cell phones. An evening’s entertainment. > And I repeat that there’s no evidence that Walmart staff gave orders to the protestors to leave. They may have just called the cops. Yes, but by Hansford’s own admission, the protesters were aware that the police wanted them to leave: > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, the police wanted the protesters to leave. They waved their arms toward the door, and the protesters complied, making their way to the front of the store. I followed close behind. The protesters then locked arms and continued to chant. He may say that he was watching quietly, but he was in fact participating in the protest by wearing his hat, an act that Walmart is perfectly free to regard as a protest. He has no First Amendment right to wear a green hat in Walmart that indicates his support of protesters. Notably, he does not allege his arrest was illegal. And now that I re-read your commentary, neither do you. So: do you contend his arrest was illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2616 "2014-10-28T16:42:19Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > It does give me a great idea for this year’s Halloween costume, though. > I’m going as : > > _ **The Inside of Smapti’s Head** _ > > Imagine the horrors, the craven fears, the night terrors that lurk within! You should be able to glean some ideas from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=723924) – the terrorist under the bed, the organlegger with scalpel at the ready, the Scary Black Man… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2617 "2014-10-28T17:23:35Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s a difference, of course, between flatly and simplisticly stating “Legal Observers are granted no special immunity from arrest or prosecution” and ignorantly stating that “Legal Observers are not a thing.” > > They clearly are a “thing.” They get training from a national professional group and have a history dating back 85 years. While it’s also true that legal observers don’t get a badge or anything, this wasn’t some case of a night janitor donning a hat that said “Legal Observer” and then went out rioting expecting special treatment. This was a lawyer acting within the traditional capacity of legal observers. If he was committing a crime the cops were right to arrest him, but given the circumstances that makes them jackasses. And as far as I’m concerned, possibly corrupt jackasses. Horseshit. Unless Justin Hansford is a complete moron, or hopes that his readers are, Hansford knowingly participated in a clandestine operation to disrupt a legal business and scare the crap out of its employees and patrons. They entered the store separately, met at a pre-designated area, and began acting like assholes. When they were asked to leave, the protestors moved from one spot inside the store to another spot inside the store and linked arms. That doesn’t sound like they intended to leave the store. Hansford moved along with the mob of protestors and was shocked, SHOCKED, that he was arrested inside the store after he had been ordered to leave. _But I have a green hat. That makes me immune to arrest_ (or maybe he thought it made him invisible). Hansford was clearing expecting special treatment. The protestors were aware that they couldn’t legally protest inside the store or they wouldn’t have entered surreptitiously. Their intention was to be arrested to publicize their cause du jour. Only Hansford seems to be to stupid to understand that his participation with the crowd could also lead to his arrest. Live and learn, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2618 "2014-10-28T17:30:10Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > …And I repeat that there’s no evidence that Walmart staff gave orders to the protestors to leave. They may have just called the cops. (post shortened) Maybe Hansford didn’t hear the request over the bilious ranting of mob? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2619 "2014-10-28T17:33:10Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > You should be able to glean some ideas from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=723924) – the terrorist under the bed, the organlegger with scalpel at the ready, the Scary Black Man… I’m not afraid of black men. Project much? ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2620 "2014-10-28T17:50:45Z")
I don’t know too many people – particularly men – who admit being afraid of anything. To be sure, there are many people who don’t even know how to identify what they’re feeling; the emotional IQ of the average person is incredibly low except for very basic pleasure-pain quadrants, and most remain wilfully ignorant of the fact that fear most often translates into some form of anger, etc. They think “if I’m afraid, I’ll feel like I do in situation”, but that’s not how it works. I think other words and actions need to speak for themselves in lieu of admissions. Where a majority of folks categorize something or someone as possessing X quality, whether or not it’s best to shrug that off depends on how afraid one is to know oneself and what level of control one’s domestic enemies/mental Nazis possess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=130) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=132)