# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 133
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2641 "2014-10-29T05:12:48Z")
Bricker: thanks for the tight reasoning. > [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but by Hansford’s own admission, the protesters were aware that the police wanted them to leave: I searched the other evening for another take on the events, but couldn’t find one. As I interpret the article, everyone was complying, until the protesters “Locked arms”. Were the protesters blocking the exit? Not clear - I would hope not. > [@](#): > > He may say that he was watching quietly, but he was in fact participating in the protest by wearing his hat, an act that Walmart is perfectly free to regard as a protest. He has no First Amendment right to wear a green hat in Walmart that indicates his support of protesters. Um, yes he did support the protestors, but the green hat didn’t say that. It said, “[Legal Observer](https://www.nlg.org/legal-observer%C2%AE-program)”. As I see it such nongovernmental institutions keep both sides honest. If such a person is not being disruptive, arresting them is akin to [arresting a journalist at McDonald’s](http://www.eater.com/2014/8/14/6170695/journalists-arrested-at-mcdonalds-in-ferguson-missouri) on trumped up charges of not moving fast enough. Worldwide, there are police who protect and serve. And there are thugs who simply protect regimes. > [@](#): > > Notably, he does not allege his arrest was illegal. > > And now that I re-read your commentary, neither do you. > > So: do you contend his arrest was illegal? I’m not a lawyer. I assume the law professor hasn’t put together a legal brief on the matter at the time the article was written. We both agree that it’s best not to throw around allegations that go beyond the alleged facts. The alleged facts is that there were 5 observers with green caps. One was arrested: the man arrested was an African American in a button down shirt, serving the public trust. Is that a civil rights violation? One that could be established beyond a reasonable doubt? A: I’m not a lawyer, never mind a civil rights lawyer. I do opine that Legal Observer Hansford was arrested for the same reason that Wesley Lowery of the Washington Post, and Ryan J. Reilly of the Huffington Post were arrested: the Ferguson police wanted to send the message that they could act with impunity. This is an organization that has a habit of selective enforcement and treats their court as a money spinner; taking the venerable concept of the speed trap to new levels. [Alex Tabarrok of Marginal Revolution](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/08/ferguson-and-the-debtors-prison.html): You don’t get $321 in fines and fees and 3 warrants per household from an about-average crime rate. You get numbers like this from bullshit arrests for jaywalking and constant “low level harassment involving traffic stops, court appearances, high fines, and the threat of jail for failure to pay.” If you have money, for example, you can easily get a speeding ticket converted to a non-moving violation. But if you don’t have money it’s often the start of a downward spiral that is hard to pull out of: [INDENT][INDENT] For a simple speeding ticket, an attorney is paid $50-$100, the municipality is paid $150-$200 in fines and court costs, and the defendant avoids points on his or her license as well as a possible increase in insurance costs. For simple cases, neither the attorney nor the defendant must appear in court. ``` However, if you do not have the ability to hire an attorney or pay fines, you do not get the benefit of the amendment, you are assessed points, your license risks suspension and you still owe the municipality money you cannot afford….If you cannot pay the amount in full, you must appear in court on that night to explain why. If you miss court, a warrant will likely be issued for your arrest. People who are arrested on a warrant for failure to appear in court to pay the fines frequently sit in jail for an extended period. None of the municipalities has court on a daily basis and some courts meet only once per month. If you are arrested on a warrant in one of these jurisdictions and are unable to pay the bond, you may spend as much as three weeks in jail waiting to see a judge.[/INDENT] Of course, if you are arrested and jailed you will probably lose your job and perhaps also your apartment–all because of a speeding ticket. ``` As a final outrage, consider this story which ties together Ferguson, the courts, and the arrest of parents, often minority parents, for leaving their kids to play in parks (just as my parents did). [INDENT]According to local judge Frank Vatterott, 37% of the courts responding to his survey unconstitutionally closed the courts to non-defendants. Defendants are then faced with the choice of leaving their kids on the parking lot or going into court. As Antonio Morgan described after being denied entry to the court with his children, the decision to leave his kids with a friend resulted in a charge of child endangerment. [/INDENT] [/INDENT] Damned if you do and damned if you don’t I guess. Such a police force should be investigated and overhauled. They are an exploitative organization, thugs with guns. They have their defenders of course. Thugs always do. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2642 "2014-10-29T05:59:00Z")
[Amnesty International legal observers in Turkey](http://humanrightsturkey.org/2013/06/01/amnesty-international-disgraceful-use-of-excessive-police-force-in-istanbul/). [Amnesty International observers in Malaysia](https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.701858663232984.1073741846.385544334864420&type=1) [Amnesty International observers in Russia](http://www.amnesty.cz/pripady/en/pripad/trojice-z-blatneho-namesti-rusko) [Amnesty International legal observers in Ferguson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nJExlhNP-Q). AFAICT, they didn’t see anything of note that evening. I like it that way. Only tyrants, criminals and their apologists fear legal observers. Honest folk take them in stride. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2643 "2014-10-29T06:24:40Z")
Anonymous claims that there won’t be an indictment. I sort of figured, but we’ll see what happens, if true. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2644 "2014-10-29T10:22:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Only tyrants, criminals and their apologists fear legal observers. So a trespasser in a green hat, being a criminal, would fear himself? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2645 "2014-10-29T10:45:11Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I don’t believe the police acted illegally. I think they should have asked the legal observers to stay out of the way, removed all of the other protesters first, if that was their prerogative, and then if the legal observers were still hanging around inside the store for some reason and wouldn’t leave despite being asked to, arrest them for trespassing. Although this is a bizarre scenario, as I’m sure the legal observers would want to follow the crowd of protesters anyway. > > eta: I didn’t meant to imply that they were corrupt for arresting the legal observer, or that they exhibited any corrupt behavior that night. It’s simply suspicious that they would not want to be observed, like cops who don’t want citizens filming them. I’d be happy to rephrase that part of my post but I think you get my gist now. Yes, I understand now. Although I think your use of the word “corrupt” when discussing the night’s actions was ill-timed, since you now disclaim any intent to imply corruption on their part that night. But your point is a fair one: by lumping in the legal observers with the rest of the protesters, police certainly did not make “transparency” their primary goal that evening. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2646 "2014-10-29T11:00:10Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Only tyrants, criminals and their apologists fear legal observers. Honest folk take them in stride. What about lawyers pretending to be legal observers but actually participating in illegal activities? Can a legitimate government have them arrested and charged, or is that a sign of tyranny? The only people doing anything wrong in Ferguson currently are the “protesters” and the ambulance chasing scumbag lawyers following them. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2647 "2014-10-29T16:40:32Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > …Only tyrants, criminals and their apologists fear legal observers. Honest folk take them in stride. (post shortened) The police responding to these particular trespassing protestors INSIDE the Walmart didn’t seem to fear either the protestors or the magic of the green hat. Both were taken in stride, and handcuffs, to the local jail. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2648 "2014-10-29T16:44:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The only people doing anything wrong in Ferguson currently are the “protesters” and the ambulance chasing scumbag lawyers following them. Ferguson reminds me of a town in a Stephen King story, where the town itself is evil. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2649 "2014-10-29T16:46:17Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Bricker: thanks for the tight reasoning. I searched the other evening for another take on the events, but couldn’t find one. As I interpret the article, everyone was complying, until the protesters “Locked arms”. Were the protesters blocking the exit? Not clear - I would hope not. (post shortened) Everyone was complying (according to Hansford) until they stopped complying. These protestors were arrested inside of the Walmart. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2650 "2014-10-29T16:55:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Ferguson reminds me of a town in a Stephen King story, where the town itself is evil. I wonder how many of the protestors, looters, molotov cocktail throwers, arsonists, green-hatted legal observers, and media-types actually reside in Ferguson? If the residents, and only the residents, of Ferguson were to vote about having these protests staged in Ferguson or would prefer that the protestors and thugs went back to wherever they came from, my guess is that they would want the protestors, and the accompanying violence, to go away. But that’s only my guess. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2651 "2014-10-29T17:07:59Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I wonder how many of the protestors, looters, molotov cocktail throwers, arsonists, green-hatted legal observers, and media-types actually reside in Ferguson? The guy in the green hat doesn’t live in Ferguson. He just came there hoping to see the police do something bad so he could write it up in an article. The police didn’t do anything bad, but he wrote the article anyway. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2652 "2014-10-29T17:24:15Z")
I think Green Hat is the new Gold Fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2653 "2014-10-29T17:30:06Z")
**Bricker’s** analysis here is wrong. The legal question, which is relatively simple, is whether the police had probable cause to arrest this dude. Since he was arrested for trespassing, this depends on whether they had reason to believe he was refusing to leave after he received notice that the store had closed. Arresting him for wearing a legal observer hat doubly fails to meet this test. First, wearing that hat is not probable cause that he was part of the protest, as anyone with any experience with protests would know–including almost certainly all of these police officers. NLG observers monitor all kinds of protests, often involving groups whose goals they oppose. And second and more importantly, even if he were in fact a protestor, the fact is irrelevant to the legal question of whether he was refusing to leave or not. I am perfectly free to go yell some slogans in a Wal-Mart, and when they kick me out, leave and not get arrested even if my co-protestors decide to engage in civil disobedience. Much turns on what exactly this guy was doing when the police were ordering everyone out, and whether he was singled out for wearing this hat. But offering up the legal analysis that “he was wearing a hat and therefore they reasonably could have thought he was a protestor and therefore he could be arrested” is just objectively wrong. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2654 "2014-10-29T17:33:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The guy in the green hat doesn’t live in Ferguson. He just came there hoping to see the police do something bad so he could write it up in an article. The police didn’t do anything bad, but he wrote the article anyway. > > Regards, > Shodan How did they recruit Kermit the green-hatted lawyer, anyway? Did he seriously think that he could not be arrested? Did they tell him that CS gas smells like violets and rubber bullets were designed to curve around green hat wearers? Personally, I would think that the business owners in Ferguson would welcome the green hats. Those are much easier to spot than the typical protestor. It’s now obvious that the green hats know where the next protest is or they are following the protestors. If you spot several green hats inside your business, and they’re obviously not buying anything, pick up the phone and ask the police to send an officer or two to keep an eye on things. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2655 "2014-10-29T17:52:04Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > …And second and more importantly, even if he were in fact a protestor, the fact is irrelevant to the legal question of whether he was refusing to leave or not. I am perfectly free to go yell some slogans in a Wal-Mart, and when they kick me out, leave and not get arrested even if my co-protestors decide to engage in civil disobedience. (post shortened) You say you would leave when requested to. Good for you. Kermit, the green hatted legal observer (KTGHLO?), was arrested inside the store after being asked/ordered to leave. Kermit made no mention of being unable to leave the store (at least until he was given a police escort). Were the linked-arm protestors physically preventing Kermit from leaving the store? Was the mob simply to phat for KTGHLO to squeeze thru? Did KTGHLO simply have no intention of obeying the police order? If he’s outside the store, he wouldn’t be arrested. If he’s still inside the store, his chances of getting handcuffed go up. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2656 "2014-10-29T17:54:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Kermit, the green hatted legal observer (KTGHLO?), was arrested inside the store after being asked/ordered to leave. Kermit made no mention of being unable to leave the store (at least until he was given a police escort). Were the linked-arm protestors physically preventing Kermit from leaving the store? Was the mob simply to phat for KTGHLO to squeeze thru? Did KTGHLO simply have no intention of obeying the police order? If he’s outside the store, he wouldn’t be arrested. If he’s still inside the store, his chances of getting handcuffed go up. I think if you re-read the final paragraph of my post you’ll see that we don’t disagree. The point is this: if he was refusing to leave, he can be arrested; if he was not refusing to leave, he cannot be arrested. It has fuck-all to do with his hat, and if the police arrested him on the theory offered by **Bricker** , they acted illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2657 "2014-10-29T17:59:23Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think if you re-read the final paragraph of my post you’ll see that we don’t disagree. The point is this: if he was refusing to leave, he can be arrested; if he was not refusing to leave, he cannot be arrested. It has fuck-all to do with his hat, and if the police arrested him on the theory offered by **Bricker** , they acted illegally. This, it seems to me, goes back to the “5 second rule” that police were using to arrest protestors previously. Basically, if you stop moving for any reason, you can be arrested. Note that the “5 second rule” tactic was ruled [unconstitutional.](http://mashable.com/2014/10/06/ferguson-5-second-rule-unconstitutional/) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2658 "2014-10-29T18:01:13Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > This, it seems to me, goes back to the “5 second rule” that police were using to arrest protestors previously. Basically, if you stop moving for any reason, you can be arrested. Note that the “5 second rule” tactic was ruled [unconstitutional.](http://mashable.com/2014/10/06/ferguson-5-second-rule-unconstitutional/) Agreed. But even that would be a better legal argument than the claim that since he was wearing a green hat he can be arrested for being in league with the people (allegedly) refusing to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2659 "2014-10-29T18:02:25Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The point is this: if he was refusing to leave, he can be arrested; if he was not refusing to leave, he cannot be arrested. It has fuck-all to do with his hat I don’t see that this necessarily follows. Can a store owner say “this store is open for shoppers only and not for protesters and affiliated legal observers and everyone else has no permission in the store”? If they can, then the police could infer from the guy’s hat that he is forbidden to be in this store by the management, and could single him out for eviction on those grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2660 "2014-10-29T18:05:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can a store owner say “this store is open for shoppers only and not for protesters and affiliated legal observers and everyone else has no permission in the store”? I don’t see why not. Private property owners have great power to decide who can come and go. As long as it’s not a suspect class, they’re generally fine. AFAICT, that’s not what happened here, but it doesn’t really matter. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If they can, then the police could infer from the guy’s hat that he is forbidden to be in this store by the management, and could single him out for eviction on those grounds. Again, this is true as far as the hypothetical premise goes. If they ban green hats, then the dude can be evicted. But eviction is not the same as arrest. The arrest is justified or not based on whether he refused to leave or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=132) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=134)