# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 140
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2781 "2014-11-18T15:38:56Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yeah, all five of them. :dubious: > > Given the reference to Commie activists, I think the original Black Panthers would be more consistent. > > Equally threatening, I guess. Considering that the NBP people have been involved in the Ferguson rallies, and have threatened to kill the police, I would guess that you’re wrong. And I would also speculate that you might find it just a bit more threatening if they were threatening to kill you. [http://www.progressivestoday.com/shock-video-new-black-panther-threatens-to-murder-ferguson-police/](http://www.progressivestoday.com/shock-video-new-black-panther-threatens-to-murder-ferguson-police/) > **[FBI warns of ‘New Black Panther Party’ leader inciting violence in Ferguson](https://www.wtvr.com/2014/08/13/fbi-warns-of-new-black-panther-party-leader-inciting-violence-in-ferguson)** > > The group, founded in 1989, is not an official successor of the Black Panther Party. They have firmly declared, “There is no new Black Panther Party” and condemned the new groups use of the name. > [@elucidator](#): > > I’m wondering why the “C” in “communist” isn’t capitalized? An editing error, or an effort to be deliberately vague? That’s how that police chief talks. Never uses capital letters when he says “communist”. Much vaguer that way. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2782 "2014-11-18T15:50:29Z")
Wow, sure a good thing that no _white_ racist organizations have made any threatening statements, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2783 "2014-11-18T15:52:30Z")
That’s exactly the right way to look at these things. In fact, my suggestion is that every time some black guy is killed we should go out and kill a white guy, just to keep the score from getting uneven. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2784 "2014-11-18T16:13:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s exactly the right way to look at these things. > > In fact, my suggestion is that every time some black guy is killed we should go out and kill a white guy, just to keep the score from getting uneven. Well, that’s only one step up from the suggestion made in all seriousness earlier that more innocent white people should be stopped and searched, to make the numbers look better… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2785 "2014-11-18T16:16:25Z")
Isn’t there some place you guys can babble nonsense to each other without involving the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2786 "2014-11-18T16:16:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In fact, my suggestion is that every time some black guy is killed we should go out and kill a white guy, just to keep the score from getting uneven. I think the rioters in Ferguson have the same idea about evening the score. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2787 "2014-11-18T16:18:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Isn’t there some place you guys can babble nonsense to each other without involving the rest of us? That would be tough. I’m afraid no place featuring babbling nonsense would be complete without you. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2788 "2014-11-18T16:30:37Z")
I have a request. When the grand jury findings are released, and that’s due any day now, CAN WE PLEASE have a NEW THREAD. This one has outlived it’s usefulness. Thank you ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2789 "2014-11-18T16:35:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thanks to **DinoR** for going much more in depth than you did. He makes a good case that there’s a significant bias against the poor by the Ferguson PD, as well as some possible additional remaining bias against black people. The first is troubling in itself, and the second would indicate the need for more data. > > Good discussion. You have a way of distorting information that is presented in ways that consistently match your positions. High incidents of pulling people over for vehicle equipment or license stops doesn’t mean there is a bias against the poor. For there to be a bias against the poor, both the poor and not poor would have to have the same level of equipment or license defects and drive at the same rate, and then the poor would need to be pulled over more frequently than the not poor. There is no evidence this is the case. What it appears Ferguson police have a predeliction to do, is pull over people who have equipment or license defects. You know, their job. Keep thinking it must be racism though. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2790 "2014-11-18T17:01:59Z")
> [@](#): > > What it appears Ferguson police have a predeliction to do, is pull over people who have equipment or license defects. You know, their job. Keep thinking it must be racism though. The data does nothing to suggest whether such stops are justified or consistent (or the opposite) – it only tells us what the officers gave as the reason for the stops. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2791 "2014-11-18T17:22:59Z")
iiandyiiii, If I could make a suggestion, one thing you might want to ponder is how strikingly opposite your logic works WRT this issue as compared to the racial-IQ discussions. In the racial IQ threads there is clear evidence of a disparity in IQ between members of various ethnic groups. And yet, your position, strenuously argued in hundreds and probably thousands of posts, is that there is “no evidence” of any genetic component, since non-genetic explanations have not been ruled out. And here, faced with raw data showing a disparity in being pulled over and/or searched, you seized on this as evidence of bias without ruling out any other possible causes - in fact you’ve put the burden of proof on anyone who wants to posit an alternative explanation. From the standpoint of logical structure, these situations seem analogous to me. And yet, from the standpoint of the logic, your approach to them is diametrically opposite. The only thing you’re consistent about is ideological direction. Something you might want to think about. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2792 "2014-11-18T17:40:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In the racial IQ threads there is clear evidence of a disparity in IQ between members of various ethnic groups. And yet, your position, strenuously argued in hundreds and probably thousands of posts, is that there is “no evidence” of any genetic component, since non-genetic explanations have not been ruled out. No, I say there’s no evidence for the genetic explanation because there’s no evidence that points to genetics as the cause that does not also point to other possible causes. Zero evidence that _only_ supports the genetic explanation. No genetic evidence. > [@](#): > > And here, faced with raw data showing a disparity in being pulled over and/or searched, you seized on this as evidence of bias without ruling out any other possible causes - in fact you’ve put the burden of proof on anyone who wants to posit an alternative explanation. I haven’t put any “burden of proof” on anyone – I’m stating my opinion and asking questions. There’s certainly no definitive and final proof of racial bias by the Ferguson PD. In fact, I’ve learned something, and I’m glad I posted about the traffic stops – it turns out that at least some of this disparity is probably explained by things other than racial bias. > [@](#): > > From the standpoint of logical structure, these situations seem analogous to me. And yet, from the standpoint of the logic, your approach to them is diametrically opposite. The only thing you’re consistent about is ideological direction. I think you’re misunderstanding my argument on both issues. We frequently seem to have these misunderstandings, and from my point of view, you frequently mischaracterize my arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2793 "2014-11-18T17:47:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I say there’s no evidence for the genetic explanation because there’s no evidence that points to genetics as the cause that does not also point to other possible causes. Zero evidence that _only_ supports the genetic explanation. No genetic evidence. Then you would agree, if you are arguing on principle, that there is no evidence that points to racism as the cause of the Ferguson police stops or searches. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2794 "2014-11-18T17:51:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The data does nothing to suggest whether such stops are justified or consistent (or the opposite) – it only tells us what the officers gave as the reason for the stops. Yes, that’s correct. At first, you seemed to be gung ho touting statistics on vehicle stops and searches for contraband that the Ferguson PD had racist practices. You repeated statistics to that effect as if they were a slam dunk - there had to be something there. Now, you seem to have concluded that Ferguson PD has a bias against the poor, AND against blacks. That’s not supported by evidence you’ve presented. An example of poor disparate impact analysis. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2795 "2014-11-18T18:03:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then you would agree, if you are arguing on principle, that there is no evidence that points to racism as the cause of the Ferguson police stops or searches. When have I stated otherwise? I’ve stated that I suspected racial bias might be one of the causes of the disparities (and it still might be), but when did I ever state definitively that this was evidence of racism? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2796 "2014-11-18T18:05:48Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Yes, that’s correct. At first, you seemed to be gung ho touting statistics on vehicle stops and searches for contraband that the Ferguson PD had racist practices. You repeated statistics to that effect as if they were a slam dunk - there had to be something there. Now, you seem to have concluded that Ferguson PD has a bias against the poor, AND against blacks. That’s not supported by evidence you’ve presented. > > An example of poor disparate impact analysis. No, it’s an example of presenting data, stating opinions on what that data might suggest, asking questions about how else it might be explained, and having those questions answered to some degree. You know, discussion. It’s the Pit, so that might be unusual, but this seemed like a pretty good example of “look at this data! this might be bad. any other explanations?” followed by “did a deeper look, and this stuff might partially explain this”, followed by “good job, **DinoR** , but here’s a quibble!”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2797 "2014-11-18T18:29:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When have I stated otherwise? I’ve stated that I suspected racial bias might be one of the causes of the disparities (and it still might be), but when did I ever state definitively that this was evidence of racism? You claimed that racial bias seemed to be more than just a small piece of the picture when there is no evidence that it is there at all. You assumed racism as the default explanation, and have angrily rejected any other reason. Just like the rioters, you assume racism without proof, and cling to it without reason. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2798 "2014-11-18T18:33:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You claimed that racial bias seemed to be more than just a small piece of the picture when there is no evidence that it is there at all. So I presented data and stated my opinion and suspicions, while allowing for the possibility of other explanations? The horror! > [@](#): > > You assumed racism as the default explanation, and have angrily rejected any other reason. Just like the rioters, you assume racism without proof, and cling to it without reason. Nope, and nope. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2799 "2014-11-18T18:36:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it’s an example of presenting data, stating opinions on what that data might suggest, asking questions about how else it might be explained, and having those questions answered to some degree. You know, discussion. It’s the Pit, so that might be unusual, but this seemed like a pretty good example of “look at this data! this might be bad. any other explanations?” followed by “did a deeper look, and this stuff might partially explain this”, followed by “good job, **DinoR** , but here’s a quibble!”. Right, Just Asking Questions. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Shodan** , what do you think about the fact that, in Ferguson, black people are more likely to be subject to traffic stops by the police than white people, and less likely to have contraband? It seems to me that the protesters are correct that the Ferguson PD treats black people differently than white people. > > … > > It seems to me that **the Ferguson PD is more likely to pull you over, and more likely to search you, if you’re black, _even though black people are statistically less likely to have contraband_**. That doesn’t seem right to me > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your suggestion didn’t offer any exculpation. Even if your suggestion were totally accepted, black motorists are still being searched more than the data suggests that they should be searched (or white motorists are being searched less than the data suggests that the should be searched). > > If black motorists (or young motorists) are twice as likely to have contraband, then perhaps they should be searched twice as much (for example). \*\* But if they’re searched 5 times as much, then that is unwarranted and suggests bias. > > The Ferguson PD has offered no exculpatory data. That suggests that they’re not interested or not able to exculpate themselves.\*\* > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why is it not meaningful, especially when there’s no additional data to explain it? The disparate search statistics and disparate contraband statistics, even the extreme example that you offered, indicate disparate treatment by race that is not warranted by evidence. **The Ferguson PD are either more likely than the evidence suggests to search black motorists, or they are less likely than the evidence suggests to search white motorists.** (my bold in all above) Let me see if I can try - your posting history on this subject suggests that you tend to draw conclusions inferring racism in a hypersensitive way. That doesn’t seem right to me. Since you have only presented one aspect to these statistics you linked to, it suggests you are not interested or able to see other interpretations of that data. This suggests you are either hypersensitive to things dealing with race, or you are hypersensitive to things dealing with race. That’s just me presenting data and stating an opinion on what the data might suggest. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2800 "2014-11-18T18:38:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Considering that the NBP people have been involved in the Ferguson rallies, OK, all **two** of them? > [@](#): > > And I would also speculate that you might find it just a bit more threatening if they were threatening to kill you. I heard him threatening to respond to violence with violence. Just like he was one of those crazy white guys on Cliven Bundy’s ranch. Guess it’s OK for right-wing white boys to do it. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=139) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=141)