# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 141
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2801 "2014-11-18T19:20:21Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Let me see if I can try - your posting history on this subject suggests that you tend to draw conclusions inferring racism in a hypersensitive way. That doesn’t seem right to me. Since you have only presented one aspect to these statistics you linked to, it suggests you are not interested or able to see other interpretations of that data. This suggests you are either hypersensitive to things dealing with race, or you are hypersensitive to things dealing with race. > > That’s just me presenting data and stating an opinion on what the data might suggest. Okay. Your opinions (and your statements preceding them) are incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2802 "2014-11-18T21:40:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably somewhere more severe than throwing a harmless object. Something worse than an empty plastic bottle. I don’t understand. Why should they be throwing anything at anybody harmless plastic bottle or not? If I’m walking down the street and throw a plastic bottle at someones head I’d face arrest. Why would this be different? Just because they are mad? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2803 "2014-11-18T22:05:45Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I don’t understand. Why should they be throwing anything at anybody harmless plastic bottle or not? If I’m walking down the street and throw a plastic bottle at someones head I’d face arrest. Why would this be different? Just because they are mad? They shouldn’t be, and they should face arrest. But if the act of arresting them in a crowd increases the risk substantially of harm to protesters and/or the cops, they should not try to make an arrest for something as minor as a harmless object being tossed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2804 "2014-11-18T22:07:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Considering that the NBP people have been involved in the Ferguson rallies, and have threatened to kill the police, I would guess that you’re wrong. > > And I would also speculate that you might find it just a bit more threatening if they were threatening to kill you. > > [http://www.progressivestoday.com/shock-video-new-black-panther-threatens-to-murder-ferguson-police/](http://www.progressivestoday.com/shock-video-new-black-panther-threatens-to-murder-ferguson-police/) > > [http://wtvr.com/2014/08/13/fbi-warns-of-new-black-panther-party-leader-inciting-violence-in-ferguson/That’s](http://wtvr.com/2014/08/13/fbi-warns-of-new-black-panther-party-leader-inciting-violence-in-ferguson/That's) how that police chief talks. Never uses capital letters when he says “communist”. Much vaguer that way. Giving you the benefit of a doubt, that isn’t what I meant. See that word “editing”? I’m talking about the transcription of his remarks, the reporting. I don’t actually know what he meant, that’s why I’m curious. Does he mean the Communist Party USA, the actual organization? Or is it “small c”, implying a vague collection of people who might consider themselves socialists or progressives, but would mostly regard “communist” as somewhere on the spectrum from mistaken to deliberately insulting. Since this man is in a position to do a whole lot of damage, I’d like to gauge his character and opinions accurately. How about you? And your citation, this Progressives Today, where in the fuck did you dig up \*that \*piece of crap? Honest engine, cross yer heart, you seriously believe that they are giving you an fair assessment of the views of American progressives? Seriously? To the extent that you offer it here as _citation_? Like it proves something? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2805 "2014-11-18T22:22:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Giving you the benefit of a doubt, that isn’t what I meant. See that word “editing”? I’m talking about the transcription of his remarks, the reporting. I don’t actually know what he meant, that’s why I’m curious. Does he mean the Communist Party USA, the actual organization? Or is it “small c”, implying a vague collection of people who might consider themselves socialists or progressives, but would mostly regard “communist” as somewhere on the spectrum from mistaken to deliberately insulting. > > Since this man is in a position to do a whole lot of damage, I’d like to gauge his character and opinions accurately. How about you? I know what you meant, but considering the amount of pointless non sequiturs you clutter these boards with you can’t complain if someone posts some of it back to you. I assume he meant radical left-wingers and was speaking colloquially. But, in answer to your question, no I don’t really care what he meant. > [@](#): > > And your citation, this Progressives Today, where in the fuck did you dig up \*that \*piece of crap? Honest engine, cross yer heart, you seriously believe that they are giving you an fair assessment of the views of American progressives? Seriously? > > To the extent that you offer it here as _citation_? Like it proves something? I never heard of it. It came up on google and I figured if it was progressive it would probably pass muster here, and in any event the key was the video. But in any event, if you don’t like it just ignore it - there were two cites. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2806 "2014-11-18T22:46:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They shouldn’t be, and they should face arrest. But if the act of arresting them in a crowd increases the risk substantially of harm to protesters and/or the cops, they should not try to make an arrest for something as minor as a harmless object being tossed. It will only increase harm if other people decide to break the law. If that happens, they also should be arrested, and this should continue until people realise that attacking the police, or attempting to prevent them doing their jobs, is not a fucking option. Do what you’re told and argue later, in court, if you really think your rights have been trampled on by being prevented from throwing stuff at the police and rioting. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2807 "2014-11-18T23:38:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It will only increase harm if other people decide to break the law. If that happens, they also should be arrested, and this should continue until people realise that attacking the police, or attempting to prevent them doing their jobs, is not a fucking option. Hopefully, if this would increase the risk of harm to police officers, they won’t follow your advice. Cops already know what I’m advocating – sometimes, an arrest isn’t feasible or wise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2808 "2014-11-19T01:10:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > …I never heard of it. It came up on google and I figured if it was progressive it would probably pass muster here, and in any event the key was the video. But in any event, if you don’t like it just ignore it - there were two cites. Da fuq? You don’t vet your own fucking\* cites\*?! Gotta be _shittin’_ me! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2809 "2014-11-19T02:19:29Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I have a request. > > When the grand jury findings are released, and that’s due any day now, CAN WE PLEASE have a NEW THREAD. This one has outlived it’s usefulness. > > Thank you It would just get messed up in the rioting. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2810 "2014-11-19T02:57:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cops already know what I’m advocating – sometimes, an arrest isn’t feasible or wise. And nobody’s arguing otherwise. Heck, I’d bet it’s why Michael Brown was shot. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2811 "2014-11-19T03:30:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And nobody’s arguing otherwise. Heck, I’d bet it’s why Michael Brown was shot. Sometimes we post things that we think are funny and clever, and we’re wrong. Hell, it’s happened to me more times than I can count. I just want you to know, when you come back later and reread this, that you’re not alone. There’s a network in place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2812 "2014-11-19T11:04:12Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Sometimes we post things that we think are funny and clever, and we’re wrong. Hell, it’s happened to me more times than I can count. I just want you to know, when you come back later and reread this, that you’re not alone. I want you to know that I read your reply last night, and thought it over, and slept on it, and in the cold light of morning, yeah, _no_. As far as I can tell, the thug who strongarmed that shopkeeper went on to overpoweringly assault the cop instead of complying with him, and so wound up getting shot by the guy he easily roughed up. If the grand jury winds up agreeing with me, there’s no need for “funny” or “clever”; the remark will simply be _accurate_. Failing that, if this goes to trial and _they_ find in favor of the guy who (a) would’ve gladly played arresting officer, but (b) resorted to lethal force because reasons, I’ll pat myself on the back for accuracy then. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2813 "2014-11-19T12:57:00Z")
**The Other Waldo Pepper** , you seem to be a) accusing Officer Wilson of intent to execute Michael Brown for resisting arrest, and b) saying that this is should be just dandy as far as a grand jury is concerned. Am I understanding you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2814 "2014-11-19T13:17:09Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > **The Other Waldo Pepper** , you seem to be a) accusing Officer Wilson of intent to execute Michael Brown for resisting arrest, and b) saying that this is should be just dandy as far as a grand jury is concerned. > > Am I understanding you correctly? I’m saying that, as far as I can tell, Officer Wilson would’ve been perfectly willing to arrest Michael Brown; that he was unable to do so because of Michael Brown’s knack for, and love of, criminal strongarm tactics; and that, if so, _I’d_ be just dandy with shooting the thug in question, and so too might the grand jury be – and, if the grand jury instead sends it on to a not-so-grand jury, I’d be dandy with _them_ being dandy with it. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2815 "2014-11-19T13:30:55Z")
Nevermind. Already covered. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2816 "2014-11-19T14:31:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > not-so-grand jury [_petit jury_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury#Types_of_jury) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2817 "2014-11-19T14:39:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [_petit jury_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury#Types_of_jury) Gesundheit. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2818 "2014-11-19T15:17:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m saying that, as far as I can tell, Officer Wilson would’ve been perfectly willing to arrest Michael Brown; that he was unable to do so because of Michael Brown’s knack for, and love of, criminal strongarm tactics; and that, if so, _I’d_ be just dandy with shooting the thug in question, and so too might the grand jury be – and, if the grand jury instead sends it on to a not-so-grand jury, I’d be dandy with _them_ being dandy with it. Here’s the thing with this reasoning; I think you misapprehend the import of the “arrest” Michael Brown interrupted. The word has a very definite legal meaning and a very well established social expectation. Neither legally nor socially/ethically can the arrest of a suspect by an officer of the court have any element of judicial intent. IOW, when a LEO arrests a suspect, it is only so that they can be brought into a process which ultimately puts them in front of an actual court, and so that they can be deterred at that moment from further criminal activity. The intent is to bring the subject into the due process of law, and to exert the level and duration of control over the individual necessary for that to happen. If an officer is unable to individually make an arrest (due to the scope or difficulty of the circumstances), then he or she has various options, all dependent on the specifics of the situation. All of these options have requisite contexts, and using deadly force has the highest bar to clear; certainly it’s not an appropriate rote response to a fleeing suspect. So at the very front of the argument here, I’m saying that “shooting Brown because he resisted arrest and assaulted the officer” is not automatically dandy in any state in the US. At the heart of the argument though, I question, as **Vinyl Turnip** did earlier, the wisdom of your assertion that a subject should be shot for the sole reason that ‘an arrest is not feasible.’ As a reminder, this is the exchange which prompted the discussion: > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > Hopefully, if this would increase the risk of harm to police officers, they won’t follow your advice. Cops already know what I’m advocating – sometimes, an arrest isn’t feasible or wise. > > And nobody’s arguing otherwise. Heck, I’d bet it’s why Michael Brown was shot. That turns the shooting of Brown from a ‘self-defense’ question into a straight up issue over law enforcement technique and the work efficiency of the officer. Since you’re standing by your response to **iiandyiiii** , I guess I’m just trying to understand why you’d want the sort of society where the police response to a failed attempt to arrest someone can only be an escalation of force by the officer(s) on the scene. There’s an awful lot of middle you’re excluding there, including ‘greater good’ arguments but also including viable law enforcement alternatives to deadly force. Unfortunately, those other options often require more thought, concern and creativity than you and others may be willing to require of our police organizations. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2819 "2014-11-19T15:34:09Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’m saying that “shooting Brown because he resisted arrest and assaulted the officer” is not automatically dandy in any state in the US. I’ll grant that it’s not _automatically_ dandy. But the facts in this case may be, and in fact strike me as, dandy. And, before long, we’ll see whether one jury or another likewise finds this specific shooting to be dandy. > [@](#): > > Since you’re standing by your response to **iiandyiiii** , I guess I’m just trying to understand why you’d want the sort of society where the police response to a failed attempt to arrest someone can only be an escalation of force by the officer(s) on the scene. It doesn’t have to be the _“only”_ police response to a failed attempt. My comment is still accurate if it’s one dandy option among other dandy options. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, those other options often require more thought, concern and creativity than you and others may be willing to require of our police organizations. If the police can solve a problem like Michael Brown with thought and concern and creativity, that’s just dandy. If they can solve a problem like Michael Brown by putting bullets into him, that’s also dandy. And – of course – if Michael Brown _doesn’t_ assault the cop who’s just trying to do his job, neither thought/concern/creativity _nor_ putting bullets into him are required, such that the latter would be horrifying; the police can simply lock a crook like him up before he strongarms another productive member of society like (a) that shopkeeper I sympathize with; or, y’know, (b) me. And that’s totally the sort of society I want. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2820 "2014-11-19T15:42:49Z")
Ah, I see. People can be safely categorized as “problems” which can sometimes be “solved” by propelling a few bullets through them. Based of course on the level of difficulty they present for law enforcement. > [@](#): > > And that’s totally the sort of society I want. You deserve the society you want, I guess. May I kindly suggest you go search for that society at the bottom of a rock? xxx [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=140) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=142)