# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 149
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2961 "2014-11-25T10:36:34Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Curious, if you HAD to choose between Brown or Wilson, which one would you choose to die? Well, I can’t say I’m unbiased. I’m a bigot, really, so I’m the wrong person to ask. But probably the bla… _ **…the black-clad, gun-toting, hotheaded patrolman.** _ Really, I don’t trust either of them, but those given authority by the state are to be judged more harshly, not less. Why is this surprising to people? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2962 "2014-11-25T11:15:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > “Blacks need to understand that it’s not a crime to kill a black person who is trying to harm or kill an other person, it is self defense.” > Why did that sentence need the second use of “black”? Because **Martin Hyde** believes blacks already understand that it’s not a crime to kill a white, Asian or Hispanic person who is trying to harm or kill another person, and that they need to extend the same understanding to cover black people. Are you really as illiterate as you make out, or is your apparent inability to understand why people use adjectives just a new way to be obnoxious? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2963 "2014-11-25T12:30:13Z")
The vast majority of black people are peaceful and lawful. All the statistics show this – any disparity in crime statistics still only involves a tiny fraction of all black people. So it’s total bullshit to speak of “educating blacks”. Foolishness that is, unfortunately, still quite common. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2964 "2014-11-25T12:49:53Z")
It’s more of a class issue but if we had the courage to properly legalise drugs then I am convinced that violent crime numbers would fall dramatically. Anyhoo, this case has rightfully gotten a lot of attention. Anytime a policeman kils someone it needs to get a lot of attention. There has been a huge amount of evidnece presented and it looks like a reasonable opinion was reached by those who had access to all the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2965 "2014-11-25T12:55:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > “Blacks need to understand that it’s not a crime to kill a black person who is trying to harm or kill an other person, it is self defense.” > Why did that sentence need the second use of “black”? It did, because blacks only seem to get mad when a white person uses legal self defense on a black person. Black people need to understand it’s not wrong, it’s not a civil rights violation, it’s not an indictment on white America, and **it’s not a crime** most importantly at all, when a black person is killed while assaulting a white person. If the black community should feel responsible at all (and I do not know why they would want to be, for a criminal) it should be a feeling of **guilt that one of their own was violently trying to hurt a white person**. Instead largely their first response is anger, denouncing “white America” and instantly assuming it was a murder with no evidence to support that assumption. > [@](#): > > “This false narrative of a […] justice system which mostly works…” > Freudian slip or really bad grammar? When you chop up the sentence it makes it hard to explain, imbecile. The sentence makes perfect grammatical sense in its original form. I simply said that it’s a false narrative to describe a system that **mostly works** as one that is failed. False narrative describes “failed criminal justice system”, “which mostly works” describes criminal justice system. You seem confused about the validity of describing something false and something true about the same noun in the same sentence. I’m not saying our system doesn’t have problems, as all CJ systems do, but the black narrative is that there’s never been a just court decision involving a black man. Other than I guess the OJ verdict. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2966 "2014-11-25T13:01:50Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Black people need to understand it’s not wrong, it’s not a civil rights violation, it’s not an indictment on white America, and **it’s not a crime** most importantly at all, when a black person is killed while assaulting a white person. You should understand that “black people” don’t need to be educated/lectured collectively on _anything_. The vast majority of black people are peaceful and lawful. You are engaging in collective responsibility and collective blame. > [@](#): > > If the black community should feel responsible at all (and I do not know why they would want to be, for a criminal) it should be a feeling of **guilt that one of their own was violently trying to hurt a white person**. Instead largely their first response is anger, denouncing “white America” and instantly assuming it was a murder with no evidence to support that assumption. Complete and utter bullshit. Not surprised, though, that you think all black people should feel guilty for the crimes of unrelated other black people. Do you feel guilty about the crimes of people of your race? > [@](#): > > I’m not saying our system doesn’t have problems, as all CJ systems do, but the black narrative is that there’s never been a just court decision involving a black man. Other than I guess the OJ verdict. God you’re full of shit. Where do you get this crap about the “black narrative”, Rush Limbaugh? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2967 "2014-11-25T13:02:21Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Black people need to understand Oh my. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2968 "2014-11-25T13:07:31Z")
I only wish that I had the speed reading and comprehension abilities of the protesters and the posters here, who clearly went through the actual evidence presented to the grand jury before deciding that justice was not done in this case. [Here, again, is the actual evidence](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/25/366507379/ferguson-docs-how-the-grand-jury-reached-a-decision). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2969 "2014-11-25T13:08:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Complete and utter bullshit. Not surprised, though, that you think all black people should feel guilty for the crimes of unrelated other black people. Do you feel guilty about the crimes of people of your race? He said they shouldn’t feel anything, but if they chose to feel something it should be guilt. You really suck at reading today, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2970 "2014-11-25T13:11:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why, no, thank Heaven he did defend himself! Otherwise he might have become one of those in that long, sad parade of white cops brutally victimized by young black men. So Wilson owed it to society to be killed for the sake of racial equality. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2971 "2014-11-25T13:12:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He said they shouldn’t feel anything, but if they chose to feel something it should be guilt. You really suck at reading today, don’t you? That’s not what he said. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2972 "2014-11-25T13:24:25Z")
[QUOTE=iiandiiii] That’s not what he said. [/QUOTE] No, but it does accurately reflect the thrust of it. The question is whether, to paraphrase you, that you think all black people should feel _anything_ for the crimes of unrelated other black people. If you agree that they should, then what they feel can be analyzed and deemed good/bad, reasonable/unreasonable, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2973 "2014-11-25T13:31:16Z")
Either way, **Martin Hyde** ’s comment is a straw man. Clearly the issue in the case of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown is that certain people don’t believe that the victims committed assault, or that the use of deadly force was a proportionate response to whatever assault did occur. It’s uncharitable in the extreme to accuse “blacks” of moral illiteracy in being incapable of understanding justifiable self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2974 "2014-11-25T13:35:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, but it does accurately reflect the thrust of it. The question is whether, to paraphrase you, that you think all black people should feel _anything_ for the crimes of unrelated other black people. If you agree that they should, then what they feel can be analyzed and deemed good/bad, reasonable/unreasonable, etc. Every person should feel sadness and/or anger (but not guilt) when another person of any category commits a crime. The race is irrelevant. Black people should feel no different (in terms of guilt, sadness, or anger) about the crimes committed by black people than they do about the crimes committed by white people. No one should feel any guilt for the crimes of others unless they are involved somehow. Being part of the same racial or ethnic group doesn’t meet this criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2975 "2014-11-25T13:42:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The real issue is that riots are going to continue until we educate blacks that our criminal justice system is largely fair and just. The reason blacks are arrested more often is because they have a higher rate of criminality. Blacks need to understand that it’s not a crime to kill a black person who is trying to harm or kill an other person, it is self defense. Being black doesn’t mean you get to hurt people and face no consequences. This false narrative of a failed criminal justice system which mostly works empowers all kinds of nonsense. People are rioting in the street literally because they believe democracy means that a jury must do what the mob says. I say educate everyone! Our education system has become something of a political football and suffers for it. As for ‘higher rate of criminality’, I suppose you missed Rand Paul on Real Time on Friday bemoaning the fact that 3/4 of our drug convictions are against black and brown people while they don’t do drugs at a higher rate. Or the recent USA Today article pointing out that Ferguson actually has a much lower rate of racially disparate arrests compared to the national average- basically pointing out that the justice system as a whole in this country is racist. Other than that, yeah, them blacks… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2976 "2014-11-25T13:42:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every person should feel sadness and/or anger (but not guilt) when another person of any category commits a crime. The race is irrelevant. Black people should feel no different (in terms of guilt, sadness, or anger) about the crimes committed by black people than they do about the crimes committed by white people. No one should feel any guilt for the crimes of others unless they are involved somehow. Being part of the same racial or ethnic group doesn’t meet this criteria. How about “aggrieved”. can they feel aggrieved? Surely they can, because they tell us they are. And if one has the empathy to feel aggrieved because they are part of a group, why should one not feel a degree of guilt when people in their group act collectively? No “guilt”, and shame are just as appropriate e,options as sadness and anger. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2977 "2014-11-25T13:50:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about “aggrieved”. can they feel aggrieved? That sounds like a variation on sadness and anger. > [@](#): > > And if one has the empathy to feel aggrieved because they are part of a group, why should one not feel a degree of guilt when people in their group act collectively? Huh? In what way have “people in their group” acted “collectively”? This sounds like a tautological assignation of collective responsibility. > [@](#): > > No “guilt”, and shame are just as appropriate e,options as sadness and anger. Guilt and shame are not at all appropriate, in my view, for the crimes of total strangers. A father might feel guilt if his son committed a crime, but that’s much different than a black person feeling guilty because another unrelated black person committed a crime. And it’s wrong to say that black people should feel guilt or shame in any way whatsoever for the crimes of others. Keep this in mind – if you’re saying black people should feel guilty or ashamed because of the crimes of unrelated people, you’re saying _members of my family who have done nothing wrong and have never hurt anyone_ should feel guilt and shame. I’m sure you can imagine how you’d feel if I said your family should feel guilty and ashamed when they’ve done nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2978 "2014-11-25T14:03:04Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I only wish that I had the speed reading and comprehension abilities of the protesters and the posters here, who clearly went through the actual evidence presented to the grand jury before deciding that justice was not done in this case. > > [Here, again, is the actual evidence](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/25/366507379/ferguson-docs-how-the-grand-jury-reached-a-decision). What possible need would anyone have for that? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2979 "2014-11-25T14:03:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every person should feel sadness and/or anger (but not guilt) when another person of any category commits a crime. The race is irrelevant. Black people should feel no different (in terms of guilt, sadness, or anger) about the crimes committed by black people than they do about the crimes committed by white people. No one should feel any guilt for the crimes of others unless they are involved somehow. Being part of the same racial or ethnic group doesn’t meet this criteria. Absolutely, I fully agree there. But by the same token, black people should feel no different when a black person is the victim of a crime than if a white person is, but you’ve been arguing that it’s fine when they do. Which is blatantly hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/2980 "2014-11-25T14:06:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That sounds like a variation on sadness and anger. > > … > > Keep this in mind – if you’re saying black people should feel guilty or ashamed because of the crimes of unrelated people, you’re saying _members of my family who have done nothing wrong and have never hurt anyone_ should feel guilt and shame. I’m sure you can imagine how you’d feel if I said your family should feel guilty and ashamed when they’ve done nothing wrong. I’m saying that if one can feel sadness and anger, and feel aggrieved, then it it is also, appropriate for one to feel, when the conduct calls for it, ashamed, embarrassed, guilty. And by aggrieved I mean that one feel personally the injustice that happens to another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=148) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=150)