# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/281 "2014-08-14T16:20:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You mean the Ferguson police are protecting the people from the Ferguson police? The police are setting fires, throwing Molotov cocktails, issuing death threats against government officials, looting and pillaging, and destroying public property? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/282 "2014-08-14T16:20:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, I’m a liberal. Based on your views as presented at the SDMB, you are a radical authoritarian nationalist. . ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/283 "2014-08-14T16:21:00Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > For anyone who actually cares to read the reporter’s account: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html) thank you for posting that link. can’t believe someone said he came off as a jerk: the reporter was scared, he was trying to do his job, leaving McDonalds and clearly frightened of the police. he was\* justified,\* too. this is very sad and very, very scary. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/284 "2014-08-14T16:22:50Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Hmm. If != ≠ ≠, than what does != equal? Really really equals? Back to the press- suppose the press had just plain cleared out of the area as the police would have liked. Would the police then be emboldened to further abuse their power? And if the police really were in the right, why did the governor relieve them of their assignment? ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/285 "2014-08-14T16:23:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It was in your own cite. Huh. I went back to read my own cite. Maybe you are thinking of another article? > [@](#): > > Shortly after 9 p.m., police in riot gear began dispersing demonstrators about a quarter of a mile from the crew’s location. They dispersed demonstrators a quarter a mile away. These demonstrators ran past the news crew. > [@](#): > > Both photojournalists and Matthews say police never told them to leave the area prior to this incident. According to that report the reporters were never told to disperse before they were fired on (with rubber bullets, and tear gas). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/286 "2014-08-14T16:25:39Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Based on your views as presented at the SDMB, you are a radical authoritarian nationalist. > . And a liberal. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/287 "2014-08-14T16:25:57Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > The problem being that they (along with hundreds of other cities) received federal money to buy surplus military gear, and dash cams are not among that gear. YES - you militarize the police to this extent and this is what happens, it’s crazy and it’s dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/288 "2014-08-14T16:26:58Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > So acting rudely is a crime now? No. But he was being a dick. And you don’t have to commit a crime in order to be detained by police. Them’s the rules. His detention may have been wrong (or may have been right), but provoking police in a tense situation, completely needlessly, is never a good idea. Oh, and being “a fellow conservative” doesn’t play with me. I don’t really care who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/289 "2014-08-14T16:27:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Really really equals? > > Back to the press- suppose the press had just plain cleared out of the area as the police would have liked. Would the police then be emboldened to further abuse their power? And if the police really were in the right, why did the governor relieve them of their assignment? 1. They would have to begin abusing their power first, which has yet to occur. 2. The St. Louis county police were already running the operation when this incident occurred. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/290 "2014-08-14T16:27:33Z")
just realized this thread is in the pit, when did that happen?! Smapti, you are a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/291 "2014-08-14T16:28:16Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > thank you for posting that link. > > can’t believe someone said he came off as a jerk: the reporter was scared, he was trying to do his job, leaving McDonalds and clearly frightened of the police. > > he was\* justified,\* too. this is very sad and very, very scary. Did you watch the video? He wasn’t doing his job and trying to leave, he was standing still, pointing a camera in a cop’s face and antagonizing him. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/292 "2014-08-14T16:29:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police are setting fires, throwing Molotov cocktails, issuing death threats against government officials, looting and pillaging, and destroying public property? The police are _shooting at the press corps_. To everybody except you, that is about as gross a violation of the principles of modern liberal society as you’ll see in real life. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/293 "2014-08-14T16:30:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Rubber bullets != bullet bullets. > [@](#): > > Such “kinetic impact munitions” are meant to cause pain but not serious injury. They are expected to produce contusions, abrasions, and hematomas.[6] However, they may cause bone fractures, injuries to internal organs, or death. In a study of injuries in 90 patients injured by rubber bullets, one died, 17 suffered permanent disabilities or deformities and 41 required hospital treatment after being fired upon with rubber bullets.[7] From [Wikipedia article on rubber bullets.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_bullet) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/294 "2014-08-14T16:30:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And a liberal. Yes. Which is why I said you weren’t conservative. Fascism and liberalism are not mutually exclusive. You can be a liberal all you want, you’re still an unrepentant fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/295 "2014-08-14T16:30:39Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > You mean like at Clive Bundy’s ranch? Well, that’s subtly different in that, in that case, it was the government that were the thugs and looters… But yes, it would probably have been better (although unjust) if they’d have complied with the police. Just as it would have been better for any innocent reporters (if that’s not an oxymoron) to have complied with the police rather than be arrested. But this idea that the press, or “peaceful protesters”, get to ignore the law and the police is absurd. Yes, I want protection from police brutality. But I also want protection from rioters, thugs, protesters, and anyone else who wants to harm me or my community. Just because one police officer may have acted wrongly - even so wrongly as to murder someone, which is at least possible here - doesn’t mean that the rest of the police aren’t acting correctly in shutting down riots and protests. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/296 "2014-08-14T16:31:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The police are _shooting at the press corps_. To everybody except you, that is about as gross a violation of the principles of modern liberal society as you’ll see in real life. They’re shooting at people refusing to disperse. Their status as press is irrelevant. “Modern liberal society” does not benefit from people acting with flagrant disrespect for the law, and it is onlynwithin the framework of respect for the law that liberal society can flourish. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/297 "2014-08-14T16:32:14Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > can’t believe someone said he came off as a jerk: the reporter was scared, he was trying to do his job, leaving McDonalds and clearly frightened of the police. Did you watch the video? In the video, he is acting like a complete dick. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/298 "2014-08-14T16:33:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. They would have to begin abusing their power first, which has yet to occur. > 2. The St. Louis county police were already running the operation when this incident occurred. [It’s the county police who are being pulled out.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ferguson-protests-police-response_n_5677741.html#194_mccaskill-confirms-st-louis-police-will-be-taken-out-of-ferguson-) No word yet on who takes their place, presumably state troopers. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/299 "2014-08-14T16:34:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > First, **Debaser** , you’re on a fool’s errand. If the police were acting illegally, then the fidelity of this board to the law is admirable. If it turns out their order was legal, then you’re a monster for not seeing that not every law is moral, and an idiot for not understanding that what was REALLY being discussed here was morality, which, of course, is defined by the liberal members of the board… Might as well start from your strongest argument, liberal hypocrisy. “What is it, Lassie? Did Timmy fall down the well? The one **Bricker** poisoned?” > [@](#): > > …So far as a brief, non-exhaustive bit of research has shown, I can’t find any authority for the police to impose a curfew. > > However, under Missouri law, a person commits the crime of “refusal to disperse” if, being present at the scene of an unlawful assembly, or at the scene of a riot, he knowingly fails or refuses to obey the lawful command of a law enforcement officer to depart from the scene of such unlawful assembly or riot… So, how does it get to be an “unlawful assembly” if no responsible authority has forbidden an assembly? I believe, in my naive understanding, that citizens are entitled to protest, entitled to petition for a redress of grievance. Did the City Council of Ferguson meet, vote, and declare an emergency curfew? No. Did the State of Missouri declare some state of emergency that temporarily overrode the right of assembly? No. Do we empower our police to make such legislation or declaration on their own discretion? News to me. > [@](#): > > …Under Missouri law, an arrest need be justified only by probable cause. This is a standard much lower than what a conviction would require. It doesn’t require certainty or even a preponderance of the evidence. It does not demand any showing that the belief that a crime is afoot be correct or even more likely true than false… if it is more likely false than true, how then is it “probable”? Isn’t that what “probable” means? Or is the definition another matter that is subject to the discretion of the police? > [@](#): > > …So in my view, there was sufficient probable cause. The reporters were ordered to leave, and apparently did not quickly comply. The reporter for the post says he was trying to comply but his bag fell off his shoulder and he didn’t understand which door he was supposed to use. The officer could have believed that the reporter was employing dilatory tactics to avoid complying with the order. There is nowhere near enough evidence to ever secure a conviction, but the standard for arrest is much lower. “Dilatory”? Is there some standard for response time? Or is that another matter for the discretion of each individual police officer to determine? How long, do you think, is the appropriate amount of time to pick up a dropped object? Would taking more time than that create some hazard for the public? Some dire threat the compels police action? And if such dreadful public violence were afoot, why are the police not at the scene of said dreadful violence, arresting perps? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/300 "2014-08-14T16:38:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, how does it get to be an “unlawful assembly” if no responsible authority has forbidden an assembly? It’s an unlawful assembly by definition if the assembly is doing unlawful things. Like burning cars and stores and so on. The issue is how broadly the authorities can then define that assembly. Ferguson police seem to be treating everyone in town as unlawfully assembled regardless of where they are and what they’re doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=16)