# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 155
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3081 "2014-11-25T20:41:52Z")
[Burn this bitch down!!](http://http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/us/michael-brown-stepfather-video/index.html?eref=rss_topstories) Fuck that motherfucker. Put that piece of shit in jail for inciting a riot. Fucking clown show over there. Way to show the world how wrong we were about the people of ferguson! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3082 "2014-11-25T20:44:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Since we cannot even agree on the meaning of “quote,” I think we’re done here. No idea what this means either, but OK with me. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3083 "2014-11-25T20:51:47Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > So how is that consistent with a charge? Seems like he walked quickly towards him then, at best (or worst). That’s not a charge. That represents the minimum distance. He could have charged from 40 or 50 feet and started bleeding halfway through his charge. After all, he managed to run from the police cruiser something like 170-180 feet without dropping any blood after being shot in the hand and arm. I wouldn’t read too much into it either way, my personal opinion is that this distance supports many of the witness who said he was walking or stumbling but I don’t think it’s conclusive in either direction. I don’t think Terr’s right to say that 25 feet is evidence of a charge, and 21.67 feet makes it seem even less likely. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3084 "2014-11-25T20:54:05Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > So how is that consistent with a charge? Seems like he walked quickly towards him then, at best (or worst). That’s not a charge. It is 2 seconds. He started running after the first burst. And stopped running at the second burst. The gap is 2 seconds. And do explain - who “walks quickly” towards someone who just shot you from about 40 feet away? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3085 "2014-11-25T21:00:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it’s 21 feet, and 3-4 seconds, that’s much closer to walking (or stumbling) speed than it is to “charging” speed. I used a stopwatch and measured about 2.5 seconds between the two groups of shots. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3086 "2014-11-25T21:00:42Z")
I’m reminded of the [Tueller Drill.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3087 "2014-11-25T21:02:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This seems to be consistent with my post – most of the witnesses agree that at the end, Brown moved towards Wilson. The disagreement was the nature of the movement – a “charge” or something else (like advancing to surrender, according to some). Brown moved towards Wilson according to some eyewitnesses and the forensic evidence. Moving towards an officer who has so recently shot at you twice and hit you once, while you (not “you”) were reaching inside their vehicle, is not a smart move. “Stop moving” would be the smart move. “Listening to instructions” would be a smart move. “Getting on the ground” would be a smart move. Charging at, or walking towards, or strolling in the general direction of, someone who is pointing a gun at you and is threatening to shoot you again, is NOT a smart move. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3088 "2014-11-25T21:57:51Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > I used a stopwatch and measured about 2.5 seconds between the two groups of shots. If the distance is 21 feet, then this would be slightly faster than normal walking speed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3089 "2014-11-25T21:59:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Brown moved towards Wilson according to some eyewitnesses and the forensic evidence. Moving towards an officer who has so recently shot at you twice and hit you once, while you (not “you”) were reaching inside their vehicle, is not a smart move. “Stop moving” would be the smart move. “Listening to instructions” would be a smart move. “Getting on the ground” would be a smart move. > > Charging at, or walking towards, or strolling in the general direction of, someone who is pointing a gun at you and is threatening to shoot you again, is NOT a smart move. Who are you arguing with? When did I claim that such an action is wise? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3090 "2014-11-25T22:02:24Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > I used a stopwatch and measured about 2.5 seconds between the two groups of shots. I listened again, this time with a stopwatch. It depends on when I hit “start” and “stop”, of course, but I still got more than 3 seconds most of the times I tried it. Between ~2.6 and ~3.3 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3091 "2014-11-25T22:07:34Z")
Wilson fired at least five shots that never found their mark. We can be glad that the incident took place in an isolated and rural location so that no innocent passersby were at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3092 "2014-11-25T22:18:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If the distance is 21 feet, then this would be slightly faster than normal walking speed. 21.5 feet in 2.5 seconds is approximately double the normal walking speed. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3093 "2014-11-25T22:57:13Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > I used a stopwatch and measured about 2.5 seconds between the two groups of shots. Quick thinking. Which number witness were you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3094 "2014-11-25T23:00:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 21.5 feet in 2.5 seconds is approximately double the normal walking speed. No it’s not, it’s about 1.5 times the normal walking speed – a fast walk at most. And if it’s more than 3 seconds, as I measured, it’s even closer to a normal walk. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3095 "2014-11-25T23:01:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > RE: McCullough > > Why did he insist on taking the case himself? Did he imagine that his reputation in the black community is so good that his presence would ensure acceptance of a verdict? Does he have a sterling record, one likely to boost the confidence of that community that justice will be strictly served? McCullough did not take the case at all. It was presented by two female prosecutors. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3096 "2014-11-25T23:02:28Z")
All this back-and-forth about distance and time assumes that he began moving at full speed the instant the gun shots were heard. There’s no indication that this is the case. He could have taken an instant to get started, and after that could have taken time to get up to speed. The discussion is relevant in terms of whether you can prove that he was charging, not in terms of whether you can figure out if he was. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3097 "2014-11-25T23:07:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not, it’s about 1.5 times the normal walking speed – a fast walk at most. And if it’s more than 3 seconds, as I measured, it’s even closer to a normal walk. 21.5 feet in 2.5 seconds is 8.6 ft/sec. Normal walking speed is 5 km/h or 4.56 ft/sec. 8.6/4.56 is 1.88 - or roughly 2 times walking speed. Not “about 1.5 times”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3098 "2014-11-25T23:12:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 21.5 feet in 2.5 seconds is 8.6 ft/sec. Normal walking speed is 5 km/h or 4.56 ft/sec. 8.6/4.56 is 1.88 - or roughly 2 times walking speed. Not “about 1.5 times”. Normal walking speed is about 5 ft/sec, and can be higher for someone tall, like Brown. So yes, about 1.5 times. And I measured ~3 seconds, or a tick more. Though this is extreme nitpicking. This certainly doesn’t prove that Brown didn’t turn back and charge Wilson, but it certainly doesn’t prove Wilson’s account either. Your assertion that the forensic evidence proved that Brown charged Wilson is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3099 "2014-11-25T23:30:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Normal walking speed is about 5 ft/sec, and can be higher for someone tall, like Brown. So yes, about 1.5 times. And I measured ~3 seconds, or a tick more. Though this is extreme nitpicking. > > This certainly doesn’t prove that Brown didn’t turn back and charge Wilson, but it certainly doesn’t prove Wilson’s account either. Your assertion that the forensic evidence proved that Brown charged Wilson is incorrect. I would say approaching someone who just shot at you at double the normal walking speed is “charging”. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3100 "2014-11-25T23:32:22Z")
Fotheringay has a good point: “The discussion is relevant in terms of whether you can prove that he was charging, not in terms of whether you can figure out if he was.” It’s unclear how many of the witnesses to what occurred were heard (I haven’t compared numbers). It’d be important at a TRIAL to pin down finer details and what occurred/what can be proved or not proved. It is the would-be accused officer who described it as a “charge”. This doesn’t mean it was more than a stumble-run (my neighbor above does it on a regular basis). It’s a bad idea to fixate on a given \*word \*and the mental image when someone would’ve been coached to use that word, along with other (no pun intended) “charged” words/terminology (likely the night of the incident, but at any rate before he was called to testify), _e.g._, how Michael looked to him “like a demon”. What I know, unless a bunch of witnesses changed the information they conveyed from their perspective as of that day and shortly after (and I’ve heard nothing to indicate such is the case), is that the only person who asserts that Michael Brown’s actions put him in actual or legit fear for his life and thus gave him an excuse to kill was Wilson, who looked after the incident as though he had nothing more serious than the burn on one’s cheek that comes from overuse of facial exfoliant. I believe the _as it happened_ video that included the disinterested third parties who yell at the time Wilson shot him yet again that he had his hands up and in fact might have been attempting to do what Wilson alleges (but who knows who else heard) him to “get down.” One is supposed to rely on the supposedly trained officer to deal with deviations from what is expected, esp. after someone’s been shot more than once. (Mr. Wilson wasn’t shot or even arguably injured, and yet he evidently … if he in fact was telling the truth … grossly misperceived the situation, the danger, and the options to address danger that might’ve resulted.) I’ve little doubt that the disinterested third party construction (?) guys without ties to that community who saw what happened at the end would’ve testified that Brown was “after” Wilson and “ran at him” or “charged” him if such was the case. I don’t believe that Wilson was in fact in fear for his life when he kept shooting at the kid (and if he was, he has no business being a police officer and hopefully never will be again). Wilson was capable of waiting for backup while Brown bled. It isn’t as though Brown was wielding a dangerous weapon and threatening to hurt people. My take is that Wilson was capable of going back to his vehicle if he was so afraid, using that as an object around which he could move to get away. That is, unless he was or is in fact delusional and believed Brown, the (his word) “supernatural” person who looked like (his words) “a demon” could fly over the car. He was the one who advanced on Brown when he could have waited. If a cop had shot me and kept coming toward me and I felt that he was about to shoot me yet again, who knows what I’d do. But I don’t know of a record of a number of people testifying that Brown came after him or, rather more importantly, threatened to hurt someone else. It’s entirely possible that Brown verbally bated the guy. As these things tend to happen, unfortunately, unlike many young black men, perhaps Brown’s parents (particularly father) didn’t do a thorough job explaining to him “You don’t backtalk or challenge a police officer, because that’s the person with the gun who can shoot you and claim (s)he was in fear for his-her life. You may be in legitimate fear of death or bodily injury by that cop, but (s)he’s the one who’ll be alive and you’ll (likely) be dead or in prison for however long.” It was entirely avoidable, as are a large number of these shootings. I dare say that if Wilson is even capable of being a good cop, Ferguson police chief isn’t in the business of ensuring proper situational training (and repeated training, not just one-time courses). At the \*very \*least, Wilson ought’ve been indicted for involuntary manslaughter. From what I understand the prosecutor didn’t even suggest what charges were possible based on various elements that the GJ might have concluded existed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=154) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=156)