# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 159
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3161 "2014-11-26T07:05:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m not arguing with anyone. Brown was moving in the direction of Wilson when he was shot. That movement has been called walking, and it’s been called charging. The forensic evidence is consistent with Brown moving towards Wilson. Can I ask how the forensic evidence supports the claim Brown was moving towards him? Not challenging BTW, I’ve been at work all day and haven’t had a chance to read the GJ evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3162 "2014-11-26T07:10:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Can I ask how the forensic evidence supports the claim Brown was moving towards him? [Brown was dripping blood as he moved.](http://localtvktvi.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/74810024.jpg?w=680) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3163 "2014-11-26T07:57:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > [Brown was dripping blood as he moved.](http://localtvktvi.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/74810024.jpg?w=680) Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3164 "2014-11-26T12:39:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m not arguing with anyone. Brown was moving in the direction of Wilson when he was shot. That movement has been called walking, and it’s been called charging. The forensic evidence is consistent with Brown moving towards Wilson. > > What’s still unknown is at what point did Wilson fire the 3rd shot. The audio recording of the last shot being fired can pinpoint the time when Brown fell down dead. The recording doesn’t prove at what point in time during Brown’s charge/advance/walk/stroll towards Wilson that Wilson fired his 3rd shot. One step, two steps, three steps, four? > > Every step would have brought Brown closer to Wilson. And Wilson wasn’t going to give Brown the chance to further injure him or possibly murder him. This might be true, or it might be true that Brown was trying to surrender, and just did it in an unwise way by moving towards Wilson and raising his hands. There are two possibilities, according to witness and Wilson testimony: after fleeing the fight and being fired on and possibly wounded, Brown turned back to charge at Wilson, or Brown turned back and raised his hands to try and surrender to Wilson. Both choices are very weird, but one probably happened. To me, the “charging” story isn’t any more plausible than the “turning to surrender” story, but again, one of them is probably the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3165 "2014-11-26T13:12:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This might be true, or it might be true that Brown was trying to surrender, and just did it in an unwise way by moving towards Wilson and raising his hands. There are two possibilities, according to witness and Wilson testimony: after fleeing the fight and being fired on and possibly wounded, Brown turned back to charge at Wilson, or Brown turned back and raised his hands to try and surrender to Wilson. Both choices are very weird, but one probably happened. To me, the “charging” story isn’t any more plausible than the “turning to surrender” story, but again, one of them is probably the truth. Brown’s intentions are irrelevant. What matters is whether Wilson was in reasonable fear of Brown injuring or killing him. I would consider that someone who’s already punched you in the face, and tried to grab your gun, coming towards you despite having been shot can reasonably be considered a threat, and it seems the grand jury agrees. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3166 "2014-11-26T13:28:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Brown’s intentions are irrelevant. What matters is whether Wilson was in reasonable fear of Brown injuring or killing him. > > I would consider that someone who’s already punched you in the face, and tried to grab your gun, coming towards you despite having been shot can reasonably be considered a threat, and it seems the grand jury agrees. Very possibly. But this is a legitimate point of disagreement about how the law should be. The protesters aren’t just angry about how the law was applied – many are angry about the laws themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3167 "2014-11-26T13:40:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Very possibly. But this is a legitimate point of disagreement about how the law should be. > > The protesters aren’t just angry about how the law was applied – many are angry about the laws themselves. No, it isn’t. The right to self defence, the right to prevent someone attacking you, is (or should be) considered a basic right. The sad fact is, as was made clear in the various Zimmerman threads, these laws in practice work to protect more black people than others. They are directly protesting against their self interest. It’s a foolish, nonsensical thing to protest. There may well be legitimate issues with policing minority communities. The police - or anyone - being allowed to shoot someone who’s punched them in the face and tried to take their gun is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3168 "2014-11-26T13:46:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t. The right to self defence, the right to prevent someone attacking you, is (or should be) considered a basic right. The details about the right to self defense and similar issues are legitimate points one can disagree on – under what circumstances a shooting can be called “self-defense”. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3169 "2014-11-26T14:30:55Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > More to the point, you are not saying that you consider Wilson to be a murderer. (We’ve got to invent an English to English to English translator guide so us English speakers can carry on a conversation. 🙂 ) I’m saying if we can only call murderers those who were charged with and/or convicted of the same, in the strict legal sense, we’d be leaving quite a lot of people generally considered murderers off that list. Perhaps **magellan** doesn’t have an issue with that, though, in which case his argument makes more sense - but still wouldn’t apply unless **jayjay** agrees. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3170 "2014-11-26T14:33:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do understand that the prosecutor (McCullough) was not the one presenting the case to the grand jury. Two other prosecutors did. The other two are McCulloch’s employees (or his subordinates, to be more precise.) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3171 "2014-11-26T14:35:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He prevented the bloody beating by shooting Brown, as was his perfect right. And as **levdrakon** correctly says, he’s being called racist because he chose not to be beaten, but instead defended himself. How did he prevent a bloody beating by shooting at someone who was running away? Anyone who can read Wilson’s testimony and believe a word of it is simply pre-fooled. It doesn’t make sense, and sounds like they gave a gun and a badge to a 5 year old with multiple anxiety disorders. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3172 "2014-11-26T14:40:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How did he prevent a bloody beating by shooting at someone who was running away? He didn’t. Are you thinking of a different case? In this one he shot at someone who was reaching into his car, punching him and trying to grab his gun, then again at someone coming towards him. This has all been covered in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3173 "2014-11-26T15:11:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He didn’t. Are you thinking of a different case? In this one he shot at someone who was reaching into his car, punching him and trying to grab his gun, then again at someone coming towards him. > > This has all been covered in this thread. I’m responding to reports from other sources, all of which clearly state that Brown was fleeing. Thus, Wilson was at that point not in danger of taking a beating. This thread has been about the psychopathic fantasies of racist pussies who live in fear of black men. This thread is the equivalent of showing a Dirty Harry movie to a bunch of fat white doughnuts in the back room of a gun show. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3174 "2014-11-26T15:29:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m responding to reports from other sources, all of which clearly state that Brown was fleeing. Thus, Wilson was at that point not in danger of taking a beating. [snip] It’s kind of amazing how brilliant you are while the grand jury is quite obviously stupid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3175 "2014-11-26T15:32:37Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This thread has been about the psychopathic fantasies of racist pussies who live in fear of black men. Interesting word choice there: _“pussies”_. Isn’t that what Brown supposedly said, when claiming Wilson wouldn’t actually shoot him? Brown found out that, no, law-abiding citizens like Wilson are in fact perfectly willing and able to end a thug’s psychopathic fantasy – of committing crimes with impunity – by making reality ensue. May we all strive – in reality, not fantasy – to follow Wilson’s example. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3176 "2014-11-26T15:47:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Very possibly. But this is a legitimate point of disagreement about how the law should be. > > The protesters aren’t just angry about how the law was applied – many are angry about the laws themselves. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The details about the right to self defense and similar issues are legitimate points one can disagree on – under what circumstances a shooting can be called “self-defense”. Can you expand on this **iiandyiiii** , please. What circumstances do you consider shooting another in self-defense legitimate? Or more pointedly, what circumstances do you believe the protesters consider shooting another in self-defense legitimate? I’ve been following this thread, and the case for some time. I don’t believe Wilson should be going to jail for killing Brown. He was doing his job, and Brown attacked him. Brown’s actions at the store before the altercation with Wilson prove he was a thug. He didn’t \*deserve \* to die for the store robbery, and he didn’t _deserve_ to die for attacking Wilson, but he apparently pushed it to the point where Wilson felt he had no other choice. All these arguments that Wilson should have done this or done that are deflecting the argument. Brown attacked Wilson, went for Wilson’s holstered gun, struggled for the gun. Brown was a threat. Wilson saw Brown as a danger to himself and others at this point, a threat. Backup was a ways away. Wilson chased Brown to stop him. When Brown ran, then ordered to stop, Brown did not stop, he did not get on the ground, he did not surrender in any directed way. He was a threat, he was told to stop, he didn’t. He turned and began to approach Wilson. At what speed does not matter. He was told to stop and he did not. He was a threat. Wilson did what he did at the time because that is what his training taught him to do. Brown attacked a policeman, he went for a policeman’s gun. He refused to follow a policeman’s direction. Brown was a threat. I repeat that for clarity, Brown was a threat. > **[Michael Brown shooting: What Darren Wilson told the Ferguson grand jury | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html)** > > In an unusual step after a grand jury deliberation, transcripts of testimony that jurors heard considering Micheal Brown’s death have been released. [QUOTE=CNN report] Wilson testified he shot at Brown on the street when Brown turned on him. “As he is coming towards me, I tell, keep telling him to get on the ground, he doesn’t. I shoot a series of shots. I don’t know how many I shot, I just know I shot it,” he said. “I know I missed a couple, I don’t know how many, but I know I hit him at least once because I saw his body kind of jerk,” he said. Wilson testified that Brown did not slow down. “At this point I start backpedaling and again, I tell him get on the ground, get on the ground, he doesn’t. I shoot another round of shots,” he said. "Again, I don’t recall how many him every time. I know at least once because he flinched again. At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I’m shooting at him. “And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn’t even there, I wasn’t even anything in his way.” He told the jurors he thought Brown was going to tackle him. "Just coming straight at me like he was going to run right through me. And when he gets about that 8 to 10 feet away, I look down, I remember looking at my sites and firing, all I see is his head and that’s what I shot. "I don’t know how many, I know at least once because I saw the last one go into him. And then when it went into him, the demeanor on his face went blank, the aggression was gone, it was gone, I mean, I knew he stopped, the threat was stopped. “When he fell, he fell on his face.” [/QUOTE] I’m trying to understand the laws for self-defense that you are trying to say the protestors are protesting about. Is it that all police who shoot/kill suspects should go to jail? Or just all black suspects?\* We would not have any police left as who would want a job that potentially will put you in jail for doing your job. I’m with **jtgain** and **OMG** in saying I don’t understand the reasoning behind the \*violent protest against [their own people] \*while declaring “Fuck the Police”. There is a serious disconnect there. What’s going to happen when all these business owners pack up and leave Ferguson, and leave it a ghost town? The very businesses who supported Brown with signs and other notices were ransacked, looted, and in a couple cases burned down. How is that justice? What law are they protesting against? Is it as levdrakon says > [@levdrakon](#): > > You heard it here, boys and girls. When a huge violent black man attacks you, take a severe bloody beating or we’ll call you racist for defending yourself. that they want the right to pummel police, steal and destroy at will, because that is what I’m seeing… \*I realize, understand and completely acknowledge there has been a racial bias problem going on here in Ferguson (for that matter the country) for years, but is this really the way to get things changed? Why wasn’t Al Sharpton, et al down here before, attempting to peacefully get the laws and/or attitudes changed long before this, and expose the biases instead of charging in with a torch ready to light the tinderbox? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3177 "2014-11-26T15:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > …Brown attacked Wilson, went for Wilson’s holstered gun… Wait, what? Where did you get that? Holstered? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3178 "2014-11-26T16:07:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m responding to reports from other sources, all of which clearly state that Brown was fleeing. Thus, Wilson was at that point not in danger of taking a beating. > > This thread has been about the psychopathic fantasies of racist pussies who live in fear of black men. This thread is the equivalent of showing a Dirty Harry movie to a bunch of fat white doughnuts in the back room of a gun show. Gosh, to the casual observer, that post sounds pretty racist. “Bunch of white doughnuts”, indeed. Keep up the good work. :rolleyes: There are many, conflicting, eyewitness accounts of what happened. The forensic evidence suggests that Brown’s right arm was inside the police vehicle when Brown was first shot. The forensic evidence also suggests that Brown was facing Wilson when Wilson fired several more rounds. And forensic evidence suggests that Brown was approaching Wilson when Wilson fired rounds 3 thru 12. The only psychopathic fantasies are those of the rioters, looters, brick throwers, and arsonist who believe that destroying businesses that had absolutely nothing to do with the grand jury decision, or the initial Brown debacle, is going to garner public support for mindless violence. ---
**Author:** ![Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fool_in_the_Rain)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3179 "2014-11-26T16:09:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait, what? Where did you get that? Holstered? Apologies, I was reading/editing so much, I missed that and didn’t proofread. Somewhere I saw where they discuss the witnesses and extrapolate things - not an official statement - here it is: [http://hotair.com/archives/2014/08/20/police-sources-to-nyt-witnesses-forensics-show-that-wilson-sustained-an-injury-during-his-confrontation-with-michael-brown/](http://hotair.com/archives/2014/08/20/police-sources-to-nyt-witnesses-forensics-show-that-wilson-sustained-an-injury-during-his-confrontation-with-michael-brown/) > [@](#): > > There are lots of ways a cop can intimidate you without blowing a hole in his own squad car or risking a ricochet. It’s more likely that the gun went off accidentally. How come?\*\* Did Brown grab for it when Wilson had it holstered? \*\*Or did Wilson have the gun out to intimidate Brown when it went off, either through Wilson’s own carelessness or because Brown grabbed at it himself? And confused it with the actual testimony. Again, apologies for that. Wilson drew the gun, and Brown grabbed it. > **[10 Of The Most Important Pieces Of Evidence From Darren Wilson's Testimony -...](https://listverse.com/2014/11/25/10-of-the-most-important-pieces-of-evidence-from-darren-wilson-testimony/)** > > Last night, people all around the country waited to hear the decision of the grand jury in Ferguson, Missouri regarding the Michael Brown shooting. The > [@](#): > > When Wilson drew his gun, he testified that Brown had grabbed it—and at that point, his fears for his own life suddenly increased. > > “He grabs my gun, says, ‘You are too much of a pussy to shoot me.’ The gun goes down into my hip and at that point I thought I was getting shot. I can feel his fingers try to get inside the trigger guard with my finger and I distinctly remember envisioning a bullet going into my leg. I thought that was the next step.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3180 "2014-11-26T16:14:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Interesting word choice there: _“pussies”_. Isn’t that what Brown supposedly said, when claiming Wilson wouldn’t actually shoot him? Brown found out that, no, law-abiding citizens like Wilson are in fact perfectly willing and able to end a thug’s psychopathic fantasy – of committing crimes with impunity – by making reality ensue. > > May we all strive – in reality, not fantasy – to follow Wilson’s example. Awww. Did Anonymous out you? Bummer. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=158) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=160)