# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 163
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3241 "2014-11-26T21:09:11Z")
BTW, if any of you missed it, **steronz** did an excellent job of presenting witness statements from the grand jury in this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=741812) ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3242 "2014-11-26T21:10:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How is that beyond doubt? We have the testimony of Wilson, what else? > > \*We have lots of testimony that places Brown fighting with Wilson and Brown partially inside the car, besides supporting forensic evidence. > \* > Suppose he _was_ mouthing off to the cop? Not smart, but not felonious. Whether that qualifies as “thug” is a matter of perception. And he sees Wilson drawing his weapon and thinks “Holy fuck, the cracker cop is going to shoot my ass!”. > > Then his options are try to take the gun or at least stop him from using it, or seeing if he can outrun a 9mm slug. There’s so much excluded middle here I’m almost at a loss. The version “he was _just standing there_, and maybe mouthing off” is so tenuous and unsupported by the evidence as to be unbelievable. Also, what \*\*Bouncer \*\*said. “Then his options are try to take the gun or at least stop him from using it, or seeing if he can outrun a 9mm slug.” Or yelling really loudly, with his hands as high as they will go “I quit! Don’t Shoot! I’m cooperating!” and following the cop’s directives. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3243 "2014-11-26T21:19:11Z")
Or yelling really loudly, with his hands as high as they will go “I quit! Don’t Shoot! I’m cooperating!” and following the cop’s directives. Which was, BTW, STILL an option _after he got shot the first time_. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3244 "2014-11-26T22:07:14Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > Maybe I’m hopelessly muddled, but were we talking false memories or repressed (including faux “repressed”) memories (that’s only two categories out of any number to do with faulty memory)? Considered myself clear on which phenomenon when I mentioned the examples of (1) parents who left babies to die in hot cars (and being certain about events leading up to tragedy, and then discovering that their memory was false), and (2) rape victims who positively identified wrong person with 100% certainty. I don’t think I read a previous reference from you earlier, so it may be _me_ who is confused as to your meaning. I thought you were talking about 'false/“repressed” memories. The notorious unreliability of memory when talking about eyewitnesses, or even characteristic mistakes we all make in failing to accurately retrieve memories is a separate phenomenon. The terms ‘repressed’ or ‘false’ when examining the accuracy (or lack thereof) of Wilson’s recall of Brown calling him a pussy may not be the best choice of vocabulary. If Wilson is incorrect about this statement, it seems much more likely an explanation that he is flat out prevaricating to try to cover his ass, rather than experiencing a failure of recall and confabulating an event that didn’t occur. I’d opine that this event would actually be much more like a ‘flashbulb memory’ (eg Where were you when kenndy was shot/Challenger exploded/etc) and those tend to be pretty vivid, especially since he was giving his version of events almost immediately after the event, so the memory trace didn’t have much time to degrade. All of this is IMHO, I would not present myself as an expert. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3245 "2014-11-26T22:19:20Z")
There’s a difference between false memory and repressed (and either actually or supposedly later recovered/recalled) memory phenomena. See prior reply. I presume many people make the mistake of deeming the two interchangeable. Yes, unreliability of memory is a whole separate category. “If Wilson is incorrect about this statement, it seems much more likely an explanation that he is flat out prevaricating to try to cover his ass, rather than experiencing a failure of recall and confabulating an event that didn’t occur.” He could be unconsciously or consciously changing a comment to embellish. (There is a thing where some men manage to believe that someone calling you a bad name … esp. one implying you’re unmanly … is justification for almost anything. Sometimes silly people will actually mention this stuff as though it’ll help.) I don’t know of ANY statement Wilson gave “immediately after the event”. I believe St. Louis County PD interviewed him hours (8?) later. His PD to my knowledge never asked him for a statement or did any interview, but may be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3246 "2014-11-26T22:31:57Z")
Fair enough, I don’t think we are substantially disagreeing. I’m not sure how quickly Wilson gave his version of events, I was under the impression that he would have been encouraged to write up a report as soon as practical. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3247 "2014-11-26T22:34:29Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [Ferguson Grand Jury Evidence Reveals Mistakes, Holes In Investigation | HuffPost Latest News](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6220814) > > Where physical evidence was not collected, it is not possible to contradict that testimony. For example, apparently no effort was made to gather fingerprint evidence from the gun. Apparently, Wilson washed blood evidence from himself. A number of other oddities certainly are eyebrow raising. Unfortunately, the 1st paragraph of your linked article, written by Nick Wing and Jason Cherkis of HuffPo, contains serious errors about when Brown’s body was covered and why the police were unable to secure the crime scene. I’m sure their guessing improved as they wrote the rest of the article. _Soon after Officer Darren Wilson shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old, law enforcement’s handling of the case was already being criticized as callous and sloppy. Residents of Ferguson, Missouri, looked on in horror as police officials failed to cover and later to remove Brown’s body from the street for hours._ Brown’s body was covered within 15 minutes and it was the death threats issued by the lynch mob that prevented the coronor from reaching the body. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3248 "2014-11-26T22:51:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How is that beyond doubt? We have the testimony of Wilson, what else? > > Suppose he _was_ mouthing off to the cop? Not smart, but not felonious. Whether that qualifies as “thug” is a matter of perception. And he sees Wilson drawing his weapon and thinks “Holy fuck, the cracker cop is going to shoot my ass!”. > > Then his options are try to take the gun or at least stop him from using it, or seeing if he can outrun a 9mm slug. If that happened, what do you believe the legal liability is for Wilson? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3249 "2014-11-26T22:53:40Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Any witnesses? Yes, sure. For instance, there’s a witness who says Brown was charging at Wilson “football style” who is undeniably lying about even being there. And there are witnesses who said Brown was shot after he was lying on the ground. What’s your point, there are like 20 something witnesses. Some of them gave statements that are contradicted by the physical evidence. But there’s lots of witnesses who’s statements \*are \*consistent with the physical evidence. So now what? Taking all the witness testimony from witnesses whose testimony was not contradicted by physical evidence, what could the grand jury conclude? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3250 "2014-11-26T22:54:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 😕 I don’t think that sentence means what you think it does. > [@](#): > > As explained, the forensic procedures allow for either DNA collection or fingerprinting from that surface. They opted for DNA. If they opted for fingerprinting, I am sure you’d be complaining that they didn’t collect DNA. As explained by who? Where? That makes no sense. Between Wilson’s and Dorian Johnson’s versions, there are a lot more false notes in Wilson’s. Johnson’s version is simply more believable. > **[Michael Brown spent his last day with his friend Dorian Johnson. Here’s what...](https://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7287443/dorian-johnson-story)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3251 "2014-11-26T22:56:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Taking all the witness testimony from witnesses whose testimony was not contradicted by physical evidence, what could the grand jury conclude? How much of Johnson’s version is contradicted by physical evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3252 "2014-11-26T22:57:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > As explained by who? By a forensic specialist in the Grand Jury testimony, I believe. [Grand Jury Volume 3 | DocumentCloud](http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1370586-grand-jury-volume-3.html) - page 42. Read it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3253 "2014-11-26T22:58:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Between Wilson’s and Dorian Johnson’s versions, there are a lot more false notes in Wilson’s. Johnson’s version is simply more believable. Believable to you, maybe. What is a “false note”? Is that something that contradicts the physical evidence or just something subjective that you don’t consider “believable”? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3254 "2014-11-26T22:58:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Taking all the witness testimony from witnesses whose testimony was not contradicted by physical evidence, what could the grand jury conclude? That’s the million dollar question. I’m going to write up my conclusions when I finish going through the trial transcripts, so I’m not going to bother you with my opinion. But honestly, that’s my big question. This is a grand jury, the standard of whatever is probably cause, right? So let’s say there are 9 solid witnesses whose testimony is consistent with the physical evidence, including Wilson, and 2/3 of them say that Brown was not charging Wilson and was not behaving in a threatening manner. What _should_ the grand jury do? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3255 "2014-11-26T23:04:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The only way “understandable” is not the same as “justified” is if you’re talking about someone lesser, morally and ethically, than you. As in “Obviously I wouldn’t do that, but that kind of person, whatchagonnado?”. **OR…** …it can mean that the other person is not in full possession of the relevant facts, or chooses to ignore them. Michael Brown should not have been shot to death, but that doesn’t mean he was a harmless “teenager”, like some cute kid with a skateboard. He was nineteen, yes, and therefore a teenager by definition. But he was also a very large and powerful man, who shortly before the shooting had intimidated the store clerk over a $50 box of cigarillos. The fact that Brown might not have been that much larger, actually, than Wilson doesn’t mean much. Wilson was sitting behind the wheel of the SUV, which might have worked to his benefit by offering some physical protection, but to his detriment in that it hampered any physical response he might have considered. Darren Wilson is evidently likewise a physically imposing man, a bit taller, in fact than Michael Brown but considerably lighter of build. Physical strength in human beings, as in the ability to lift, pull, shove, or strike, is only vaguely proportionate to size, at best. Even a man who works out to the point of being ripped may be weaker than another of comparable size who happens to have better genetics. It’s not at all inconceivable that Darren Wilson’s likening of himself to a five-year-old trying to attack Hulk Hogan was well-founded. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3256 "2014-11-26T23:07:44Z")
Man, all sorts of stuff flying around online, like claims of backdating (back timing) in police reports, video clips that supposedly show a KKK leader letting slip on MSNBC that they’d been consulting with the Fergueson police off the record… It all goes back to my last post: there are a lot of folks out there who don’t trust what the police is telling the public, and honestly, they don’t have a lot of reason to. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3257 "2014-11-26T23:20:35Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Man, all sorts of stuff flying around online, like claims of backdating (back timing) in police reports, video clips that supposedly show a KKK leader letting slip on MSNBC that they’d been consulting with the Fergueson police off the record… It all goes back to my last post: there are a lot of folks out there who don’t trust what the police is telling the public, and honestly, they don’t have a lot of reason to. You forget a couple of things. The internet will also provide proof of alien abductions, alien visitation, etc. of you search for it. It’s about as reliable as an old Studebaker. Secondly, the Feds are also investigating the matter. Even if there was such a conspiracy, do you think the Feds are in on it too? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3258 "2014-11-26T23:28:31Z")
As noted in the GD Evidence thread, the DNA testing clearly indicates Wilson’s blood in and around the patrol vehicle. If that isn’t a result of being assaulted by Brown, what? Cut himself shaving? Faked evidence/conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3259 "2014-11-26T23:32:30Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > As noted in the GD Evidence thread, the DNA testing clearly indicates Wilson’s blood in and around the patrol vehicle. If that isn’t a result of being assaulted by Brown, what? Cut himself shaving? Faked evidence/conspiracy? Wilson’s DNA, not his blood, if I am reading it correctly. Wilson’s blood shows up on his thigh only. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3260 "2014-11-26T23:37:55Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Wilson’s DNA, not his blood, if I am reading it correctly. Wilson’s blood shows up on his thigh only. You are probably right, important distinction, I stand corrected, even though it doesn’t invalidate my larger point, I don’t think. Thanks. As for those citing dorian Johnson’s version of events, any thought of ‘consider the source’? I mean this guy was a co-perpetrator of the crime in the store, and walking along with Brown down the middle of the street, and approached the cop car with Brown, closely enough for Brown to hand him the cigars, if I understand it correctly. It reconstructs to me that he almost literally ‘had Brown’s back’ during this thing. And we expect his version to have integrity how, exactly? Does any of this, and/or Johnson’s criminal record, impeach him as a source at all? Should it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=162) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=164)