# Ferguson, MO **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354 "2014-08-12T04:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 164
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3261 "2014-11-26T23:40:53Z")
Noticing you didn’t answer my question. My question was "What fingerprint evidence could have impeached Wison’s version of events? I also asked you: “Apparently, Wilson washed blood evidence from himself.” - Hentor 3 possibilities: 1. blood is from Brown. Appears to support the officer’s version. 2. blood is from Wilson. Supports the officer. 3. blood is from neither. Might support a conspiracy or some other version I can’t conceive of, that would support Brown. Which are you suggesting, or what other possibility have I missed? Or are you just asking questions? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3262 "2014-11-26T23:44:07Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > You are probably right, important distinction, I stand corrected, even though it doesn’t invalidate my larger point, I don’t think. Thanks. No problem. I went through the report myself, and I think it’s saying actually that there was also a minor DNA contribution to the blood from Wilson on Wilson’s gun, too, assuming I’m reading it correctly. Reading through it I note that there appears to be no clear DNA evidence of Wilson, blood or otherwise, on Brown’s hands - would that count as an example of physical evidence contradicting Wilson’s story that \*\*Bricker \*\*was asking for? I’m not clear as to Wilson’s remarks, nor to the chances that recoverable, clear DNA would be the result of an assault of the nature in his claim. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3263 "2014-11-26T23:54:44Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Wilson’s DNA, not his blood, if I am reading it correctly. Wilson’s blood shows up on his thigh only. The DNA analyst is clear to say that he can never know _where_ the DNA came from, be it blood, spit, mucus, or whatever. I believe the implication is that the blood stain on Wilson’s thigh is Brown’s blood, and Wilson’s DNA was found by virtue of the fact that our pants are probably swimming in our DNA. But the DNA analyst would never go so far as to spell that out, since he can’t know for sure. I don’t believe Wilson had any open wounds anywhere on his body. I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen any testimony that Wilson was bleeding anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3264 "2014-11-26T23:59:02Z")
Thanks for the correction. This is why I’m hesitant to say much about the DNA evidence - it seems an exact and careful science. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3265 "2014-11-27T00:04:53Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Thanks for the correction. This is why I’m hesitant to say much about the DNA evidence - it seems an exact and careful science. Indeed. And since Wilson testified that Brown was pushing the gun into his left thigh, finding his own blood there would be a huge piece of evidence. But as far as I know, he didn’t have any cuts or bruises on his thigh. It’s also clear from the transcript that the grand jury so desperately wanted to hear the analyst tell them things like “This is Mike Brown’s blood.” And he would only talk in the sort of vagaries that you’d expect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3266 "2014-11-27T00:32:35Z")
> **[Why exactly did the police lie for 108 days about how far Mike Brown ran from...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/11/26/1347499/-Why-exactly-did-the-police-lie-for-108-days-about-how-far-Mike-Brown-ran-from-Darren-Wilson)** > > The day after Mike Brown was killed, the police began stating that he died just 35 feet from Officer Darren Wilson's SUV. For the first month, in my own ... \*\* stereo\*\*, your GD thread is awaiting your perusal and a ruling on the field. Its about this story, linked above, that concerns the ongoing narrative about the distance between Brown and Wilson. Commonly that distance has been described by police sources as being about 35 feet. It was not, it was \>150 ft. Links are in the story. Of special note is a segment of Wilson’s interview with Little Georgie Stephanopolos, where he repeats the “thirty five” foot story. Even though, as the story notes, the prosecutor stated it officially to be 158 feet. No official clarification has been issued at this time. Shit!! Totally forgot the PSA! The link is to _Daily Kos_, a level one mental liberal cootie exposure, proceed at your own risk! ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3267 "2014-11-27T00:40:36Z")
Given this, from the article: “Still, the police refused to acknowledge or comment on the matter and _several members of the St. Louis media_ wrote me publicly and privately to tell me I was wrong and that Brown was indeed killed 35 feet from Wilson’s SUV.” (Emphasis added) I would go so far as to call this provocative but not conclusive. Local media presumably know the area a lot better than this blogger. The eyewitness accounts were obviously all over the place when it came to estimating the distance. Also, I believe Wilson is acknowleged to have run after Brown for some distance, so the distance from the SUV seems a little off the main point, which would seem to be the distance between the two men. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3268 "2014-11-27T01:33:49Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > Noticing you didn’t answer my question. My question was "What fingerprint evidence could have impeached Wison’s version of events? > > I also asked you: > “Apparently, Wilson washed blood evidence from himself.” - Hentor > 3 possibilities: > > 1. blood is from Brown. Appears to support the officer’s version. > 2. blood is from Wilson. Supports the officer. > 3. blood is from neither. Might support a conspiracy or some other version I can’t conceive of, that would support Brown. > Which are you suggesting, or what other possibility have I missed? Or are you just asking questions? I did respond in post 3235. Pay attention before you cop such an attitude. I would be more interested in whether the amount and location of the blood was consistent with Wilson’s story. How did that utility of blood evidence escape your ironclad breakdown of all possibilities? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3269 "2014-11-27T01:39:30Z")
Wow. All of these questions about the evidence and witness testimony, discrepancies and the like. It’s not very cut and dried either way, if you ask me! If only there was some way that these things could have been sorted out. Like a trial of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3270 "2014-11-27T01:46:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Believable to you, maybe. What is a “false note”? Is that something that contradicts the physical evidence or just something subjective that you don’t consider “believable”? Uh, the dialog that sounds like a bad movie? The cop who is perfectly polite (in contrast to his demeanor in a separate videotaped confrontation) and is met with “Fuck what you say” or whatever was claimed. The out-of-the-blue insane attack by the super predator. The full swing punches through a partially opened drivers side window. The full swing punches from a menacing hulk of a beast that leave no visible mark. The full swing punches with a hand supposedly still holding cigarellos. The pause in the middle of administering a beating to hand off the cigarellos. All the stuff that sounds plausible only if you’re biased to see giant menacing black thugs. I find it much more plausible that a cop feels his authority was disrespected flings a door open and has it bounce back on him. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3271 "2014-11-27T02:07:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I did respond in post 3235. Pay attention before you cop such an attitude. > > I would be more interested in whether the amount and location of the blood was consistent with Wilson’s story. How did that utility of blood evidence escape your ironclad breakdown of all possibilities? So if Brown’s fingerprints are not found on the gun, what do you suppose that might prove? Are you under the impression that after both men wrestle for the gun, and then Wilson admittedly continues to handle it and operate it, that an absence of Brown’s fingerprints somehow disproves Wilson’s story? Are you under the impression that there are always 'usable prints" after an time has been touched? Similarly, AFAIK Wilson admittedly washed blood from his hands/forearms. Not sure how this might be hiding clearly damning evidence. Maybe you could clearly state the hypothesis where lack of fingerprints and washing his hands clearly suggests a significant coverup, so I really don’t get what you are proposing might have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3272 "2014-11-27T02:10:12Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > So if Brown’s fingerprints are not found on the gun, what do you suppose that might prove? Are you under the impression that after both men wrestle for the gun, and then Wilson admittedly continues to handle it and operate it, that an absence of Brown’s fingerprints somehow disproves Wilson’s story? Are you under the impression that there are always 'usable prints" after an time has been touched? Similarly, AFAIK Wilson admittedly washed blood from his hands/forearms. Not sure how this might be hiding clearly damning evidence. Maybe you could clearly state the hypothesis where lack of fingerprints and washing his hands clearly suggests a significant coverup, so I really don’t get what you are proposing might have happened. Again, “we might not have found anything if we had looked” is about the weakest piece of shit excuse I’ve ever heard regarding forensic evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3273 "2014-11-27T02:15:29Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Again, “we might not have found anything if we had looked” is about the weakest piece of shit excuse I’ve ever heard regarding forensic evidence. Did you read the cite I gave you from the GJ transcripts where the forensic specialist explains how they could do DNA identification on the gun or fingerprints, but not both? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3274 "2014-11-27T02:53:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did you read the cite I gave you from the GJ transcripts where the forensic specialist explains how they could do DNA identification on the gun or fingerprints, but not both? I did, and I find it hard to believe. I would like to hear an explanation and confirmation from another authority. For example, and I am NOT presenting this as authoritative - it’s just something from the internet, but it states that it is possible to examine for fingerprints and then DNA: > **[evidencemagazine.com](http://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1031)** > > Auto Insurance In,Affordable Auto Insurance,Contacts Online with Insurance This makes more sense to me because if DNA evidence was so easily rendered useless, it would seem that it would be regularly contaminated by all the stuff that must be present wherever DNA evidence is found at crime scenes. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3275 "2014-11-27T02:59:48Z")
Real life isn’t an episode of CSI. Just sayin’. Abby can’t really just run everything through her molecular re-enhancement program and all will be known. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3276 "2014-11-27T02:59:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I did, and I find it hard to believe. Of course. Why would anyone believe a forensic specialist about something he does every day? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3277 "2014-11-27T03:01:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Again, “we might not have found anything if we had looked” is about the weakest piece of shit excuse I’ve ever heard regarding forensic evidence. Clearly you (and I) lack the necessary expertise to judge that. I am willing to admit it and accept the expert’s testimony. You seem wedded to your own admittedly ignorant conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3278 "2014-11-27T03:09:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Real life isn’t an episode of CSI. Just sayin’. Abby can’t really just run everything through her molecular re-enhancement program and all will be known. I’m sorry, but I have to rebut this ridiculously false point of gross incorrectitude, and heap shame on you for suggesting it. Abby’s NCIS. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3279 "2014-11-27T03:15:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. Why would anyone believe a forensic specialist about something he does every day? Well, the article I linked to was written by a forensic specialist who did that everyday, apparently. [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=2JR2VL35H-rHsQSLqILYCg&url=http://www.fijo.com.br/docs/biografia\_blozis.pdf&ved=0CDQQFjAH&usg=AFQjCNF9JrEdqQ5vxj6h1SWwY8zo6gPQpw](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=2JR2VL35H-rHsQSLqILYCg&url=http://www.fijo.com.br/docs/biografia_blozis.pdf&ved=0CDQQFjAH&usg=AFQjCNF9JrEdqQ5vxj6h1SWwY8zo6gPQpw) Specifically, Blozis wrote: > [@](#): > > When there is an insufficient amount of ridge detail or the fingerprint is clearly a smudge, consider processing it for DNA. It is also possible to recover DNA from areas that have already been processed for fingerprints by swabbing the area after the fingerprint is lifted. However, be mindful of contamination issues concerning the fingerprint brush. A fingerprint brush that has been used at other crime scenes has the potential of containing DNA from those scenes and being transferred to surfaces at the present crime scene. > > Substrates such as drinking glasses can be processed for both DNA and fingerprints. First, process the rim area for DNA; then, process the entire glass for fingerprints. Other small substrates that have minute surface areas should be processed for DNA. As I said, I would like to have an expert explain why it would not be possible. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354/3280 "2014-11-27T03:16:41Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > Clearly you (and I) lack the necessary expertise to judge that. I am willing to admit it and accept the expert’s testimony. You seem wedded to your own admittedly ignorant conclusion. Experts in general have extreme value. Individual experts, not as much. I would think most people need more than a single expert to have them believe something that seems counterfactual to them. Heck, I would think most Dopers would actually want the experts to offer proof of some sort before believing them. This is yet another reason I wish this had gone to actual trial. Experts need to be cross-examined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=163) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ferguson-mo/695354.md?page=165)